The Most Ignorant AI of All Time?

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Omnius -> The Most Ignorant AI of All Time? (4/6/2016 6:09:55 PM)
I think that Athena is the most ignorant excuse for an Artificial Ignorance of all time and all games I've played. It's obvious that Athena hasn't been improved at all over the years since Napoleon's Campaigns yet AGEOD keeps forcing this garbage AI on us. Why can't we have Hotseat play mode? Why can't we control minor nations like we can in every other Napoleonic game I've played. Empires in Arms is so superior to WoN because of this. Why can't AGEOD give us human control of all nations or tribal areas so we can play Hotseat mode? I tried a small test starting a new January 1805 campaign scenario as Great Britain. By turn 4 I was trying a trick to be able to move minor nations but found that even though Portugal was allied with Great Britain I still couldn't move it's units like I can Holland's land units. I decided to check France and found that while allied with France I couldn't move Bavarian units as France the way I could Holland's. Now the real problem I saw was just how massively stupid the French AI played in the first 3 turns. The whole Army of Italy was gone from northern Italy, Massena was in Paris with a few corps that were with him in Italy. How they could have gotten that far that fast in the dead of winter while crossing the Alps is beyond me. Scotty beam me up, there's no intelligence in Athena! Just incredibly stupid to vacate the whole of Italy when a war with Austria is coming. Also prematurely stupid to load up in Paris in 1805 when Britain doesn't really have enough army to go for Paris. The other thing I hate about Athena Ignorance is how it screws up perfectly formed armies and corps. Nothing I hate more than to see lone QC army or corp HQ's or artillery units or supply wagons moving around beyond the front lines alone. It makes playing against the AI so unfulfilling. This is why I want Hotseat play mode, I'll never buy another AGEOD game if it doesn't have Hotseat play mode where we can play solo while playing each country. When playing with multiple major and minor nations I want to be able to play each without interference from the extreme ignorance of Athena. Why couldn't AGEOD have made WoN like other Napoleonic games by allowing us to ally with minors and once done we get to play them. Is that really too much to ask for AGEOD? I love the WEGO game system but I've had more than enough of having to deal with the most ignorant AI of all time and games.

Aurelian -> RE: The Most Ignorant AI of All Time? (4/6/2016 8:17:14 PM)
Hardly. By the way, you can play hotseat..

Omnius -> Incomplete Hotseat (4/7/2016 2:21:09 PM)
Aurelian, It's an incomplete hotseat play mode as we're still stuck with AI controlled minor nations. I'm wishing for a total hotseat mode where we can play all nations like in other war games like Empires in Arms. It's just frustrating having to deal with incompetent AI's like Athena.

altipueri -> RE: The Most Ignorant AI of All Time? (4/7/2016 2:54:47 PM)
Why don't you just code it then? Shouldn't take long. As for "AGEOD keeps forcing this garbage AI on us." I didn't realise it was a compulsory purchase. I just inhale and go "wow" looking at the map whilst those little armies get moved by the hand of God. It does take my laptop 8 minutes to process a turn though so there's plenty of time to contemplate or do other things. According to Greek Mythology, dotcom, Athena only took part in wars that defended the state and home from outside enemies; so perhaps AGEOD is respecting that. quote: ORIGINAL: Omnius I think that Athena is the most ignorant excuse for an Artificial Ignorance of all time and all games I've played. It's obvious that Athena hasn't been improved at all over the years since Napoleon's Campaigns yet AGEOD keeps forcing this garbage AI on us. Why can't we have Hotseat play mode? Why can't we control minor nations like we can in every other Napoleonic game I've played. Empires in Arms is so superior to WoN because of this. Why can't AGEOD give us human control of all nations or tribal areas so we can play Hotseat mode? I tried a small test starting a new January 1805 campaign scenario as Great Britain. By turn 4 I was trying a trick to be able to move minor nations but found that even though Portugal was allied with Great Britain I still couldn't move it's units like I can Holland's land units. I decided to check France and found that while allied with France I couldn't move Bavarian units as France the way I could Holland's. Now the real problem I saw was just how massively stupid the French AI played in the first 3 turns. The whole Army of Italy was gone from northern Italy, Massena was in Paris with a few corps that were with him in Italy. How they could have gotten that far that fast in the dead of winter while crossing the Alps is beyond me. Scotty beam me up, there's no intelligence in Athena! Just incredibly stupid to vacate the whole of Italy when a war with Austria is coming. Also prematurely stupid to load up in Paris in 1805 when Britain doesn't really have enough army to go for Paris. The other thing I hate about Athena Ignorance is how it screws up perfectly formed armies and corps. Nothing I hate more than to see lone QC army or corp HQ's or artillery units or supply wagons moving around beyond the front lines alone. It makes playing against the AI so unfulfilling. This is why I want Hotseat play mode, I'll never buy another AGEOD game if it doesn't have Hotseat play mode where we can play solo while playing each country. When playing with multiple major and minor nations I want to be able to play each without interference from the extreme ignorance of Athena. Why couldn't AGEOD have made WoN like other Napoleonic games by allowing us to ally with minors and once done we get to play them. Is that really too much to ask for AGEOD? I love the WEGO game system but I've had more than enough of having to deal with the most ignorant AI of all time and games.

kev_uk -> RE: The Most Ignorant AI of All Time? (4/7/2016 3:58:05 PM)
Athena was the Goddess of Defence and of Athens, if I recall correctly?

Aurelian -> RE: Incomplete Hotseat (4/7/2016 4:19:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Omnius Aurelian, It's an incomplete hotseat play mode as we're still stuck with AI controlled minor nations. I'm wishing for a total hotseat mode where we can play all nations like in other war games like Empires in Arms. It's just frustrating having to deal with incompetent AI's like Athena. So you're stuck with AI controlled minors...... Boohoo. And this isn't EiA, March of the Eagles, Crown of Glory, etc Speaking of EiA..... quote: ORIGINAL: obsidiandragon I still play against useless AI, but set up challenges to make it more interesting. Wish they would have kept working AI like promised... Game doesn't work well as a stand alone but is playable for beginning strategies and some tactics. However, when Russia declares war on England because of a lapse of war against Sweden .. that should tell you something. Making deals between allies still has issues, they may tell you they will give you something but that doesn't mean you'll get it etc.. AI player won't surrender until you have destroyed all troops and occupy most of their cities AND they are in instability.. I have NEVER seen an AI build a single ship in years of playing it. So as long as France keeps building them and trying to run British blockade killing a few each time, eventually you WILL get through and England will never rebuild them. Best of Luck,

Jacekim -> RE: Incomplete Hotseat (4/8/2016 7:32:26 AM)
I can concur with the AI part. I have shelfed WoN until it is playable. I.e AI controlled power behave somewhat resonably, overrun countries give up, river boat that do not sail in the middle of the ocean. Hope that will happen soon.

Omnius -> Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (4/16/2016 12:25:51 AM)
altipueri, I don't code so that's a really lame suggestion on your part. Sorry but when I watch the Athena Ignorance moving units around the map in the most ignorant fashion I just want to turn it off and not have it wreck my playing pleasure. I'm into early 1808 as the Brits and I saw plenty of totally ignorant moves. Like French artillery units moving north of the Sea of Azov in Russia to no purpose. They moved back and then went up to attack St. Petersburg unsupported where they were wiped out. Don't you see how the AI's ignorantly move lone artillery and even HQ units forward beyond their lines as if they were cavalry recon? I hate seeing most of northern Portugal captured while the main Portugese army is dorking around in the Ronda region accomplishing absolutely nothing. It's not like I need help defending Gibraltar. Not to mention how they empty perfectly good army and corp formations and then try to make new ones that are garbage because they exceed command limits. I'll play the 7 major nations PBEM style since that way all commanders show as active to start a turn but they only determine whether they're really active or not when the resolution phase begins. More realistic that way since we shouldn't know which leaders will be active or not until the turn resolves, just think of all the grief Nappy could have saved himself if he knew that about his subordinate leaders before committing them to battles. I just wish that we didn't have to have Athena control the minors, now to figure out how to lobotomize an already lobotomized Athena so it doesn't do too many stupid things during the game. I'm starting a YouTube video series on WoN, just did the initial review episode. I'm going to devote a whole episode to just how ignorant Athena plays, I'll make sure to give you the link so you can see and understand what I do about poor gameplay by Athena. However you can watch my initial episode here: https://youtu.be/byeqZdw4gvA

Phoenix100 -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/10/2016 7:45:19 PM)
I think Altipueri's coding suggestion might have been ironic. Lol. Athena is the goddess of wisdom.

Phoenix100 -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/10/2016 7:47:32 PM)
This thread is hardly the place for me to ask this, so sorry, Omnius, but can anyone tell me, a total beginner why when I play the short Waterloo scenario as Wellington the Prussians are not controllable by me, in any way, and hence I can't really do any historical tactics? I may be being a bit dim..... Going to watch your video now, Omnius.

Aurelian -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/10/2016 11:08:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: phoenix This thread is hardly the place for me to ask this, so sorry, Omnius, but can anyone tell me, a total beginner why when I play the short Waterloo scenario as Wellington the Prussians are not controllable by me, in any way, and hence I can't really do any historical tactics? I may be being a bit dim..... Going to watch your video now, Omnius. Because you can only control one major power. And controlling both is not historical either.. :) Play Wellington, save, reload, choose Prussia, give orders. Run turn. Do it again.

Aurelian -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/10/2016 11:16:54 PM)
And another example of an ignorant AI. Playing SES Jutland. I watched a flotilla of British destroyers turn in succession to steer 90 deg. Which is fine. Except it made a 270deg turn to starboard to do it. Thus sailing through its own formation. Made a nice target.

Phoenix100 -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/11/2016 10:22:58 AM)
Thanks Aurelian. Wellington didn't, of course, have full control over the Prussians, but he was meant to be the C in C. The essence of the tactics was about getting Wellington and Blucher's forces joined to outnumber the French. Wellington gave orders (or shall we say polite requests) to Blucher and much depended on Blucher complying, as you know. Can't seem to do that here. Are you suggesting I can change sides between saves? How curious. It's something, though given the scale, not quite the same thing. By the end of the first turn of the short Waterloo campaign the die is cast, really.

loki100 -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/11/2016 4:40:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Omnius ... I'm starting a YouTube video series on WoN, just did the initial review episode. I'm going to devote a whole episode to just how ignorant Athena plays, I'll make sure to give you the link so you can see and understand what I do about poor gameplay by Athena. However you can watch my initial episode here: https://youtu.be/byeqZdw4gvA got to admit, you are showing real dedication to your crusade. Intrigued to know what you expect to happen though? Would be far more use if you started offering structured comments - should at start armies be locked into shape (if so how are reinforcements to be handled?), should the AI be forced to certain force ratios (if so how is it to handle smaller nations or less important theatres) and so on.

Aurelian -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/11/2016 8:46:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: loki100 quote: ORIGINAL: Omnius ... I'm starting a YouTube video series on WoN, just did the initial review episode. I'm going to devote a whole episode to just how ignorant Athena plays, I'll make sure to give you the link so you can see and understand what I do about poor gameplay by Athena. However you can watch my initial episode here: https://youtu.be/byeqZdw4gvA got to admit, you are showing real dedication to your crusade. Intrigued to know what you expect to happen though? Would be far more use if you started offering structured comments - should at start armies be locked into shape (if so how are reinforcements to be handled?), should the AI be forced to certain force ratios (if so how is it to handle smaller nations or less important theatres) and so on. For another point of view, read post #57. http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?43348-This-game-is-unplayable-because-of-the-poor-AI/page2

Rosseau -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/12/2016 2:41:28 AM)
Thanks for the reminder on Empire in Arms. Just when the nightmares were receding [;)] Too busy to play WoN yet, but I think there's nothing wrong with asking for more options like the OP suggests. Sometimes it's the way we ask. IMO, you have to watch out for those one-man-band, unsupported spin-offs like Ageod's Spanish Civil War. I wasted my money there. But no one can tell me the Revolution Under Siege mega campaign isn't a work of art. Better AI is a cause worth supporting. And even a negative video will probably help Ageod more than hurt.

gwgardner -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/12/2016 5:08:53 PM)
Why do you take such glee in demeaning a game, Omnius? You even made a video to show how you can 'entrap' the AI? Wow. If your intent is to encourage the devs to improve the AI, then I challenge you to edit the title of this thread so as not to turn prospective purchasers away.

zakblood -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/12/2016 5:28:12 PM)
have you tried to alter the settings in game? [image]local://upfiles/43185/26C4D1A6219A41119FF216F99A965109.jpg[/image]

zakblood -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/12/2016 5:32:51 PM)
next [image]local://upfiles/43185/B2CAD1B3131B4D968D7DFA4324276FCA.jpg[/image]

zakblood -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/12/2016 5:34:01 PM)
next [image]local://upfiles/43185/0758D125CF6D416488FAB621CF4C241F.jpg[/image]

zakblood -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/12/2016 5:35:34 PM)
the game can be as easy or as hard as you wish to make it, just by altering a few basic sliders [image]local://upfiles/43185/EA47BE1294734636B4F2CC34D53ED169.jpg[/image] enjoy it and play it how you wish it to be, or not[X(]

loki100 -> having great fun playing the AI (5/12/2016 8:28:23 PM)
generally good advice some of those settings make a huge difference. If I am going to play any AGEOD game vs the AI I tend to give myself the hardest activation rule (ie inactive=immobile). If you play a side with poor leadership (Reds in Rus; Union in the Civil War, Austria in RoP) this will result in teeth grinding levels of frustration as you see an opportunity just slip away. On the other hand if you do this with a weak side but better leadership (Confederacy in Civil War, Prussia in RoP, France in WoN), when putting together a bold move you run a hell of a risk. This setting also makes you very careful about campaigning up to winter as you risk having an army immobilised. Add on the worst attrition setting (ie you can only replace if static and on a depot). What you do is to create a situation where the AI becomes a challenge and where you face pretty realistic command problems. Using this setting I've had a couple of vs AI Rise of Prussia games go the full Seven Years (something you never see in PBEM) and it makes France in WoN into a challenge.

aaatoysandmore -> RE: The Most Ignorant AI of All Time? (5/27/2016 11:52:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Omnius I think that Athena is the most ignorant excuse for an Artificial Ignorance of all time and all games I've played. It's obvious that Athena hasn't been improved at all over the years since Napoleon's Campaigns yet AGEOD keeps forcing this garbage AI on us. Why can't we have Hotseat play mode? Why can't we control minor nations like we can in every other Napoleonic game I've played. Empires in Arms is so superior to WoN because of this. Why can't AGEOD give us human control of all nations or tribal areas so we can play Hotseat mode? I tried a small test starting a new January 1805 campaign scenario as Great Britain. By turn 4 I was trying a trick to be able to move minor nations but found that even though Portugal was allied with Great Britain I still couldn't move it's units like I can Holland's land units. I decided to check France and found that while allied with France I couldn't move Bavarian units as France the way I could Holland's. Now the real problem I saw was just how massively stupid the French AI played in the first 3 turns. The whole Army of Italy was gone from northern Italy, Massena was in Paris with a few corps that were with him in Italy. How they could have gotten that far that fast in the dead of winter while crossing the Alps is beyond me. Scotty beam me up, there's no intelligence in Athena! Just incredibly stupid to vacate the whole of Italy when a war with Austria is coming. Also prematurely stupid to load up in Paris in 1805 when Britain doesn't really have enough army to go for Paris. The other thing I hate about Athena Ignorance is how it screws up perfectly formed armies and corps. Nothing I hate more than to see lone QC army or corp HQ's or artillery units or supply wagons moving around beyond the front lines alone. It makes playing against the AI so unfulfilling. This is why I want Hotseat play mode, I'll never buy another AGEOD game if it doesn't have Hotseat play mode where we can play solo while playing each country. When playing with multiple major and minor nations I want to be able to play each without interference from the extreme ignorance of Athena. Why couldn't AGEOD have made WoN like other Napoleonic games by allowing us to ally with minors and once done we get to play them. Is that really too much to ask for AGEOD? I love the WEGO game system but I've had more than enough of having to deal with the most ignorant AI of all time and games. Wow, someone else gripes about ai's besides me? Will wonders never cease to amaze me. I get beat down if "I" complain about AI's. They say I do it too much and I say we all don't do it often enough. If more people complained more things would get done. Even Iain said on the thread about FONt sizes to keep complaining they were too small so the devs could see how we feel about things. AI's have had 30 years to develop and really they've only gotten worse. I remember AI's back in the 80's that could whip my butt. I can beat them today with my eyes closed or at least one of them so I can see the hard to read monitor stuff. [:'(] Europe Ablaze comes to mind when I think of strong AI's back in the day. It was really hard to beat the British in that game. They shot down my planes by the hundreds. Hey just like in the real war huh? [:'(] I'm wit ya pal when it comes to AI's though. Why they are a LAST thought to a game instead of the FIRST is beyond me.

aaatoysandmore -> RE: The Most Ignorant AI of All Time? (5/27/2016 11:56:28 AM)
@ZAKBLOOD, what you don't seem to understand is all that mess doesn't improve the AI, it just tweaks the NUMBERs in the game. That is not smart ai or intelligent ai as the ai implies.

vaalen -> RE: The Most Ignorant AI of All Time? (5/27/2016 7:23:53 PM)
I have played Ageod games since BOA came out, and Athena has given me a number of very good games. I play as if Athena was a human general, and do not try to do unhistorical actions to entrap her or get her to act crazy. That can be done fairly easily, if you do things no general would have ever done in real life. But if you do that, you will ruin your own game. If I follow this rule of playing historically, Athena usually gives me a good game, and has won more than I care to admit. And the AI for a specific game can be improved. An example would be Hannibal, Terror of Rome, where AI Hannibal was not at all terror inspiring when the game came Out. I politely complained about this on the forum, and the AJE team improved the AI to the point that Hannibal really did become a terror, and playing Rome against, Athena became a real challenge, especially in the post Cannae scenario.

Lecivius -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/27/2016 7:41:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Omnius altipueri, I don't code so that's a really lame suggestion on your part. Actually, no it is not. If you don't like something you have 2 options. 1) Make something better. 2) Do something different. Complaining about that which you admittedly have no knowledge of simply advertises ignorance of a subject and opens you to ridicule. You had prior knowledge of the Athena engine, or at least you should have considering the amount of time you spent bashing it post purchase. The only thing 'lame' here is all the time & effort you have spent in this effort. Go learn to fix it. THEN you can shout to the heavens. Until then, your just a troll (not insulting, that is the term used). [image]local://upfiles/26061/A35498115950400AA03356560BA99141.jpg[/image]

Aurelian -> RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds (5/27/2016 10:01:58 PM)
I just love this reply on the Ageod forum, (linked above, but this is easier.) "You sure give a lot of time to a series of games that you repeatedly claim to have given up on and repudiated. And, apparently, plan to give even more time to recording yourself playing them and then posting it on YouTube. I think that if I truly hated something with as much vitriol as you have expressed here, I wouldn't still be coming to this forum to proclaim said vitriol. Interesting." Really. Me, I just toss them aside or use the disks as targets.

vaalen -> RE: having great fun playing the AI (5/27/2016 11:26:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: loki100 generally good advice some of those settings make a huge difference. If I am going to play any AGEOD game vs the AI I tend to give myself the hardest activation rule (ie inactive=immobile). If you play a side with poor leadership (Reds in Rus; Union in the Civil War, Austria in RoP) this will result in teeth grinding levels of frustration as you see an opportunity just slip away. On the other hand if you do this with a weak side but better leadership (Confederacy in Civil War, Prussia in RoP, France in WoN), when putting together a bold move you run a hell of a risk. This setting also makes you very careful about campaigning up to winter as you risk having an army immobilised. Add on the worst attrition setting (ie you can only replace if static and on a depot). What you do is to create a situation where the AI becomes a challenge and where you face pretty realistic command problems. Using this setting I've had a couple of vs AI Rise of Prussia games go the full Seven Years (something you never see in PBEM) and it makes France in WoN into a challenge. Loki100, I have played with the inactive immobile setting for myself, and it really makes the game more challenging. Have never had the courage to use the worst attrition setting, though. I salute you!

Aurelian -> RE: having great fun playing the AI (5/27/2016 11:44:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vaalen quote: ORIGINAL: loki100 generally good advice some of those settings make a huge difference. If I am going to play any AGEOD game vs the AI I tend to give myself the hardest activation rule (ie inactive=immobile). If you play a side with poor leadership (Reds in Rus; Union in the Civil War, Austria in RoP) this will result in teeth grinding levels of frustration as you see an opportunity just slip away. On the other hand if you do this with a weak side but better leadership (Confederacy in Civil War, Prussia in RoP, France in WoN), when putting together a bold move you run a hell of a risk. This setting also makes you very careful about campaigning up to winter as you risk having an army immobilised. Add on the worst attrition setting (ie you can only replace if static and on a depot). What you do is to create a situation where the AI becomes a challenge and where you face pretty realistic command problems. Using this setting I've had a couple of vs AI Rise of Prussia games go the full Seven Years (something you never see in PBEM) and it makes France in WoN into a challenge. Loki100, I have played with the inactive immobile setting for myself, and it really makes the game more challenging. Have never had the courage to use the worst attrition setting, though. I salute you! Just started using Loki100's settings. Works well.

loki100 -> RE: having great fun playing the AI (5/28/2016 8:22:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vaalen quote: ORIGINAL: loki100 generally good advice some of those settings make a huge difference. If I am going to play any AGEOD game vs the AI I tend to give myself the hardest activation rule (ie inactive=immobile). If you play a side with poor leadership (Reds in Rus; Union in the Civil War, Austria in RoP) this will result in teeth grinding levels of frustration as you see an opportunity just slip away. On the other hand if you do this with a weak side but better leadership (Confederacy in Civil War, Prussia in RoP, France in WoN), when putting together a bold move you run a hell of a risk. This setting also makes you very careful about campaigning up to winter as you risk having an army immobilised. Add on the worst attrition setting (ie you can only replace if static and on a depot). What you do is to create a situation where the AI becomes a challenge and where you face pretty realistic command problems. Using this setting I've had a couple of vs AI Rise of Prussia games go the full Seven Years (something you never see in PBEM) and it makes France in WoN into a challenge. Loki100, I have played with the inactive immobile setting for myself, and it really makes the game more challenging. Have never had the courage to use the worst attrition setting, though. I salute you! I first used it in vs AI RoP game using the Austrian side. The combination meant the game lasted the full seven years and the last two both sides were more or less reduced to being armed mobs (and small mobs at that) for the last 2 years. It remained a real challenge right to the end and ended in a draw. Good thing was I didn't have to then optionally restrain what I did and since Prussia has better leadership Athena still had the tools she needed.

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