Lethal ASW aircrafts (Full Version)

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IgnacioSertr -> Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/13/2016 9:35:55 PM)


Hi everybody. This is my first post, though I have been enjoying CMANO for a long time.


I have read that some authors consider SSN/SSKs to be the main threat to other submarines, and you can even find comments regarding ASW aircraft and surface platforms as minor threats.


However, in CMANO my subs are consistently detected and easily sunk by ASW aircrafts.

I have tried everything to avoid sonobuoy barriers, both active and passive: sticking to the bottom when posible, hiding below the thermocline, above, skipping in the middle of the layer, lurking in the shallow depth, keeping track of aircraft from periscope depth, drifting, sprinting...nothing seems to work for me.

Whenever I cross a barrier, I get caught and inmediately attacked. And even if the first or second attack fails, they seem to have no difficulty regaining a solution. I have never survived once detected.


Try an scenario like, for instance, Northern Fury #9.7 – Sub Surge, 1994, and see what I mean. I am lucky if half my subs reach their patrol areas, not to say surviving in them for some time.



Is it my fault? Are my tactics so deficient? Is the detection model flawed? Are ASW aircraft simply so effective?


I would be thankful to hear your opinion



mikmykWS -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/13/2016 10:34:05 PM)

If you can do us a favor a post an example we could walk through it and probably give you a step by step answer. You're asking a question that really has a lot of answers.

Mike



IgnacioSertr -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 10:40:22 AM)

You are right, those were a lot too many questions. In fact, I was trying to stir some debate about my perceived effectiveness of ASW patrol aircraft (and helos) and perhaps getting some hint to cope with them, more than intending to check some particular bug or flaw -if there is one.


If you are willing to review a particular situation, lets play through Northern Fury #9.7 – Sub Surge, 1994 scenario, for instance. You can load it into the scenario editor so you can swap sides and use god's eye utility.

Then you can see multiple ASW aircraft laying sonobuoy lines between your submarines and their patrol área destinations. Try to sneak through them with your subs -Agusta, Atlanta, Perle, anyone else. There seems to be no speed/depth combination allowing you to sneak through without risk or with slight risk. Even with creep speed, other side of the layer, sonobuoys seem to get detections more than 1,5 NM away; much more at cruise speed or same side of the layer.

Now try to do the same in normal game mode -that is, no editor, no God's eye. You get no clue of where are passive sonobuoys being laid, as you get no sound indication when they are dropped, no hearing aircraft turboprops, radar emissions insufficient to provide range to aircraft. That means you have a 40%-50% chance of being detected crossing a single barrier. With literally thousands of sonobuoys expended and several barriers between your subs and their intended patrol zones, most of them will be detected at least once.


And once detected I find no way to escape detection, even if surviving 1 or 2 torpedo attacks. In editor mode, try skipping one of the SSNs into sonobuoy detection range and you will be promptly attacked. Speed away from torpedo, go to flank speed and cross your fingers. If the torpedo was dropped some distance away, you may avoid attack, but usually you will have to rely on countermeasures and attackers hit %. I would say you have no more than 50% chance of surviving an air dropped torpedo attack. When I survive such an attack I try to get out of detection range -with the invaluable help from Gods eye view- and go to creep speed until clear the área. However, attackers seem to detect me again even if out sonar range and reattack until my sub is sunk -they have plenty of torpedo loadouts. So being detected by ASW aircraft roughly equals 100% killing.



IgnacioSertr -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 10:49:37 AM)

This leads me to think it is almost imposible for SSNs to cruise through an área patroled by ASW aircraft, and very improbable to survive on station if ASW aircraft patrol the same área.

Thus, in an scenario such as Northern Fury #9.7 – Sub Surge, 1994, at least half of your subs will be sunk by ASW aircraft trying to reach their patrol áreas/misión destinations and that will be a regular expectation.


Bottom line question:

Is such conclusión right or is there some tactic or method that improves survivability against ASW aircraft -and which I am missing?



Thank you very much for your interest and help.



Dimitris -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 12:38:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IgnacioSrtr
However, attackers seem to detect me again even if out sonar range and reattack until my sub is sunk


Hello,

We have every intention of helping you but as I'm sure you understand we cannot investigate on speculation/hearsay. The above quote, for example, implies a potential bug. Is there a save file showing this situation?

Help us help you. Just saying "ASW aircraft are killing my subs" isn't helpful. We need specific, detailed examples with accompanying save files to look into any potential issue.

Thanks.



Gunner98 -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 12:47:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IgnacioSrtr


Thus, in an scenario such as Northern Fury #9.7 – Sub Surge, 1994, at least half of your subs will be sunk by ASW aircraft trying to reach their patrol áreas/misión destinations and that will be a regular expectation.



I might suggest that NF 9.7 is not the best scenario to learn submarine tactics with. It's quite a difficult set up, several very experienced players have had trouble with it, and some have just moved on although a couple have managed to succeed without casualties.

The best way to protect your subs from ASW aircraft is to gain air superiority. In this scenario, without any air support and especially in the relatively shallow and restricted waters off the North Cape where the Soviets have air dominance, and overwhelming air resources - you have a number of very difficult and time sensitive tasks.

Might I recommend some of the earlier (or soon to come) scenarios in the series where your SSNs are working in conjunction with surface and air forces. The only two purely sub based scenarios so far, NF2 & 9.7 are very difficult.

Edit. The development thread is here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3972457

Some ideas are included in there. Also, re-reading your post, one trick you may wish to try is to have one of your SSNs (the Seawolf is best) raise its ESM mast well to the west of the action. Track the ASW Aircraft, make assumptions on where the sonabouys are going in, time them and push your subs through the predicted gaps. Although its worth remembering that there are some SSK/SSNs up there as well.

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IgnacioSertr -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 1:28:34 PM)


mykmyk and Sunburn, Thanks for your help.


I will try to be more specific and back it up with some files over the weekend. Particularly, I will try to renact that posible "attackers seem to detect me again even if out sonar range and reattack until my sub is sunk " bug.



mikmykWS -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 1:34:37 PM)

Sounds great.

Mike



IgnacioSertr -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 1:45:31 PM)


Gunner, your comments and development thread were very helpful.


As difficult as that scenario may be, it is also very interesting -and frustrating as well!


Reading your comments about "air superiority" as best defence against ASW aircraft makes me wonder if teaming fleet submarines with carrier TF is the only sensible way to approach ASW barriers. If so, NATO SSNs entering Barents Sea unsupported (or Soviet ones trying to cross G-I-UK gap) would be almost suicidal.








Primarchx -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 2:42:26 PM)

Sub ops are difficult, for sure. See my post from a while back on key principles (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3876405. Complexity of sub ops & ASW continues to grow as the game matures, too.

Most of your protection from passive detection as a sub comes from keeping your self-noise (native + speed generated) low, placing a sound-degrading barrier between yourself and a detecting enemy (thermocline) and keeping a respectful distance and/or bearing from a detecting enemy. When dealing with a/c this is pretty hard as it is difficult for a sub to detect their position (even harder if they run without radar) and impossible to see a passive sonar buoy field. Often your first indication of trouble, beyond an ESM spike when you go to the roof to take a peek, is an active buoy or torp dropped right on top of you.



Gunner98 -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 3:35:25 PM)

quote:

Complexity of sub ops & ASW continues to grow as the game matures, too.


The scenario was produced a few months ago, before some of the big ASW improvements. It may well be that the odds are stacked too high against the player. When I have a chance I'll go back and check that out.

quote:

If so, NATO SSNs entering Barents Sea unsupported (or Soviet ones trying to cross G-I-UK gap) would be almost suicidal.


Very difficult yes. The GIUK gap, less so because of depth, size and under-sea geography where you can hide better. I think that improvements in the game are making it more evident why sub skippers had big kahunas and a lifetime of experience preparing them to meet the challenge.

There are quite a few air assets on the Soviet side, perhaps an expedient would be to put a bunch of them on maintenance to thin out the patrols until I get a chance (not soon unfortunately) to take a better look at the scenario. One of the original comments was that there were over 10K sona-bouys expended by the Sovs in the scenario, perhaps a tad excessive, perhaps not considering...

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IgnacioSertr -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 4:59:14 PM)


Primarchx, I think this excerpt from your "thin blue line" post sums up what I was trying to say about ASW aircraft in the game

quote:

SOP 6: Respect ASW Aircraft.
Probably the most dangerous opponent, aircraft can often detect your sub without you even knowing it and have the ability to quickly localize and pursue you. Sonobuoys last for hours and helos with active dipping sonar can put your sub in a spotlight and keep it there. I am very loathe to enter an area where I know ASW aircraft are hunting for these reasons. Anything you can do with your other units to reduce this risk is very much appreciated.



May be we all agree about ASW aircraft as most dangerous opponent "in game". I definetly do.


On the other hand, I find many comments in "real life" pointing other platforms (SSN/SSKs) other than aircraft as the main ASW threat. They also tend to present SSNs as capable and cost-effective assets for waging independent warfare in the enemies backyard. They would be neither capable nor cost-effective in that kind of warfare if they were so vulnerable to ASW aircraft. Sub operations would be forbidding without counter-air umbrella, under ice-cap situation or closed air bases. And yet Cold War navies invested so heavily in SSNs.




It is that difference in "threat rating" from real life comments to our experience playing CMANO that puzzles me.









mikmykWS -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 5:31:56 PM)

Is this going to go anywhere other than you don't like to lose?

Please post a scenario when you get a chance. We'll definitely take a look.

Mike



IgnacioSertr -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 5:47:52 PM)

Ha Ha! Great humor

No, it is not about winning or losing. In fact, I am having much fun with CMANO. Win or lose.


It is about better understanding naval warfare.

I think CMANO is a great source of information and educational tool. Papers and books are some others.
So I am confronting contradicting sources. Trying to understand. Stirring healthy debate.


I just thought the fórum could be a good place for it.

But if I am wrong and the threads are reserved for technical issues or I am not presenting the topic in a proper way, or any other comment I must know, just tell me so.




IgnacioSertr -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 5:51:44 PM)

Gunnar, I remember reading an old paper on aquisition and cost of sonobuoys for US NAVY and it mentioned 300,000 sonobuoys produced anually for US Navy.

Thats a lot of them to spend!



Dysta -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 5:56:07 PM)

Hey Igna, just a quick reminder: After 10 posts since the sign up, you can upload attachment like savefile or image for us to solve issues. So you don't have to write down every details and leave us guessing only.



Gunner98 -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 6:01:40 PM)

Interesting. Didn't know that, but I assumed that they were virtually unlimited to any of the larger nations, numbers would be well planned and predicted with a lead time factored in for re-procurement when certain triggers are reached.

For the scenario in question, the Sov's know very well that they have a vulnerable area and they would defend it with everything they have, so I wasn't particularly concerned with the expenditure rate. However, what hasn't been done is a needs based analysis. I simply took the resources that I thought the Sov's would have available, divided up the area, set a bunch of patrol missions and watched the sona-bouys fall[:D]

It may be overkill

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thewood1 -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 6:03:29 PM)

I would imagine sonobouys would also need regular maintenance in storage to be effective.



IgnacioSertr -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 6:20:49 PM)

Dysta, thanks for the reminder.


However I cannot attach links or files for 7 days after my 10th post.


I am afraid it will have to wait




Gizzmoe -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 6:26:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IgnacioSrtr
However I cannot attach links or files for 7 days after my 10th post.


You can post links if you run those links through the URL shortener http://bitly.com , then post the generated link without the http:// part. Use a free filehoster like www.tinyupload.com to share files.



Primarchx -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 7:38:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IgnacioSrtr

On the other hand, I find many comments in "real life" pointing other platforms (SSN/SSKs) other than aircraft as the main ASW threat. They also tend to present SSNs as capable and cost-effective assets for waging independent warfare in the enemies backyard. They would be neither capable nor cost-effective in that kind of warfare if they were so vulnerable to ASW aircraft. Sub operations would be forbidding without counter-air umbrella, under ice-cap situation or closed air bases. And yet Cold War navies invested so heavily in SSNs.

It is that difference in "threat rating" from real life comments to our experience playing CMANO that puzzles me.



The game has a tendency to exaggerate the performance of certain tactics. In Command authors put together scenarios to challenge other players. Hence they place a sub at point X and tell them they have to go to point Y. Between X and Y the scenario author puts some challenging obstacles and imposes a tight schedule in which to get the mission accomplished.

However the ocean is a big place, aircraft have limited availability, endurance & sonobuoys and one rarely knows what the enemy's operational intentions are. The US Navy could probably put up a near-impenetrable ASW cordon around New York harbor with the assets they command. But can they do so for Boston, Charleston, Mobile, Houston, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle and Honolulu? What about the SLOCs leading to those ports and the foreign ports they connect to?

I'm not an expert but the whole subs-as-best-ASW-tool works okay when you can station your subs off an opponent's sub base and then reliably trail their deployed subs without being detected in turn. That requires a large submarine force with a substantial acoustic and sensor advantage. Something the West had through the Cold War but has been eroding somewhat since then. The future of ASW looks to tip the balance toward a more multi-platform, networked approach to sub detection.



thewood1 -> RE: Lethal ASW aircrafts (4/14/2016 10:47:08 PM)

One thing the game doesn't do, but the scenario designers should do is account for overall inventory a country has. Missile procurement and inventory or even total aircraft availability is often not considered. Expensive items like cruise missiles are treated like cheap candy in bigger scenarios with no regard to the fact that it takes a long time to procure and deliver those items.

A great example is DF-21 antiship variants and other later cruise missiles. Last I saw in 2015 is there were only 86 DF-21 ASBM in PLAN inventory. I think procurement rate is in the teens per year. You want to start making ASW fair, start limiting sonabouy usage after a surge (I am not sure the game can do this one). Start taking down aircraft after for maintenance or engine replacement.



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