Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed?

Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (Full Version)

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JOhnnyr -> Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (4/14/2016 5:06:29 PM)
I'm following the newbie guide, and I noticed that when upgrading the colony ship, adding any additional thrusters actually lowers cruise/sprint speeds. Why is this? It doesn't make much sense that the added weight of them is reducing the speed beyond what they can produce...

Padraig Tseng -> RE: Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (4/14/2016 5:14:44 PM)
Power requirements...add a reactor and see what happens

JOhnnyr -> RE: Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (4/14/2016 5:25:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padraig Tseng Power requirements...add a reactor and see what happens Aha! Is this reflected anywhere? My excess energy doesn't budge regardless of how many ion thrusters I add. (but there is a point where adding more reduces speed) Just trying to understand the systems. Thanks!

Padraig Tseng -> RE: Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (4/14/2016 6:06:55 PM)
Not sure, I usually trial and error my designs until I get what I want out of them

Rambe -> RE: Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (4/14/2016 7:20:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JOhnnyr quote: ORIGINAL: Padraig Tseng Power requirements...add a reactor and see what happens Aha! Is this reflected anywhere? My excess energy doesn't budge regardless of how many ion thrusters I add. (but there is a point where adding more reduces speed) Just trying to understand the systems. Thanks! Static energy only count things that draw constant energy (so they are always on, like lifesupport/shield/...), so because thrusters (and weapons/hyperdrive) only draw energy when they are actually used they don't affect static energy consumption, so you want to have reactor output be bigger than static energy consumption + thruster energy consumption (cruise mode for civilian ships, sprint for military, energy consumption is shown under that speed diagram) (+ weapon energy consumption for military ships). Also at earlygame you should check that you have enought exces energy to run hyperdrive at full capasity (those usually need two nuclear reactor to reach top speed).

Aeson -> RE: Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (4/14/2016 7:28:43 PM)
quote: Is this reflected anywhere? In the section of the ship design screen labelled "Movement," there are two lines at the top. One is labelled "Speed," and lists the speeds that the vessel can currently achieve at impulse, cruise, and sprint thrust. The other is labelled "Energy," and lists the power required by the ship's thrusters from the ship's reactors to propel the ship at the speed listed in the speed line. If any of the entries in the "Energy" line is close to the ship's excess reactor output, you're close to needing additional reactor capacity to achieve the ship's maximum speed. If any of the entries in the "Energy" line is equal to the ship's excess reactor output, then the speed associated with that line is very likely less than it could be due to a lack of sufficient available power, and if the "cruise" speed is so capped, then the "sprint" speed is likely severely reduced. quote: My excess energy doesn't budge regardless of how many ion thrusters I add. Excess energy output is simply (total reactor output) - (constant power drains). Constant power drains are represented by the "static energy" requirement of a component; some components with such a requirement are hab modules, life support, and sensors. Primary drive and maneuvering thrusters only consume power while active (primary drive thrusters such as Ion Drives are considered to be active if the ship has a nonzero speed and is not at hyperspeed, maneuvering thrusters are considered to be active if the ship is turning) and so do not impact the listed excess reactor output as they are not constantly drawing power from the ship's reactors. Be aware that excess reactor output is shared between the weapons, shields, and propulsion systems. If excess reactor output is insufficient to cover the sum of the requirements of these systems, then the performance of one or more these systems will suffer if all are active simultaneously. Shields will have reduced regeneration rate, weapons will have reduced rates of fire, and drives will propel the ship at less than rated speed. The power required for shield regeneration is equal to the shield regeneration rate, regardless of which shield generators are used. This thread is a good resource for understanding the game's energy and power model. This thread is a good resource for finding guides which may answer questions you might have about various game systems.

Edmesa -> RE: Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (4/14/2016 7:40:32 PM)
Excess energy = Reactor output + energy collectors - static energy usage. Shield recharge, weapon and movement systems arent taken into account. Energy under movement, maximum weapon energy use and shield recharge run on excess energy and if those use more energy then is available then the reactor buffers are used and if those are depleted some systems are offline until it get energy again. In a good energy management there should be enough excess energy for weapon systems, shield recharge and cruise speed combined, having enough energy for sprint speed is a nice to have.

Aeson -> RE: Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (4/14/2016 8:09:58 PM)
quote: Excess energy = Reactor output + energy collectors - static energy usage. Energy collection does not factor into excess reactor output. Nor should it, because energy collectors are nonfunctional outside of system boundaries and are supposed to be nonfunctional at any time that the ship carrying them has nonzero speed.

Cubano -> RE: Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (4/15/2016 7:14:44 AM)
I love the game but there are some areas that are needlessly complicated. Energy is one of them.

Chris21wen -> RE: Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (4/15/2016 8:35:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cubano I love the game but there are some areas that are needlessly complicated. Energy is one of them. Personally I disagree. It's a very good model, probably the best thing in DWU. Adding stuff to a ship adds weight (size in the game) and there comes a time when the power developed by the engines is cancelled out by the weight of the item being added. (Power/Weight). You can overcome this somewhat by adding another reactor but this also adds weight and so on. Energy is simple. Excess energy = Reactor output - Static energy usage. This is then shared out and your fine if:- Excess energy > Max Weapon energy + Max Sprint Energy + Shield Recharge Rate A good design should also have enough reactors to provide full Hyperdrive speed and Energy Collection > Static Energy Usage. Others have written much more comprehensive guides to ship design but this is the basic version and works for me.

Chris21wen -> RE: Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (4/15/2016 8:44:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JOhnnyr Aha! Is this reflected anywhere? My excess energy doesn't budge regardless of how many ion thrusters I add. (but there is a point where adding more reduces speed) Just trying to understand the systems. Thanks! It won't, your confusing propulsion with energy generation. You need to add more reactors to increase energy.

Shark7 -> RE: Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (4/15/2016 5:46:26 PM)
My opinion on this is simple. There is a lot going on 'under the hood' that we the players can't see. Add too many of anything, and performance degrades. I also note that there are diminishing returns. 10 engines might get your frigate up to 40 speed, but 20 engines may only get it up to 50. Also, adding too many reactors will slow movement and hyperspace speeds, while not having enough does the same. It really does require some careful balancing. I've had ships with far more reactor power than needed, and when I removed some of the reactors (to reduce maintenance costs) I found that the ship performed better without the overload of reactors. In general the base designs that shipped with the game, or those designed by the AI enhancement mod team, seem to be well done in regards to 'bang for buck' category, IMO.

Aeson -> RE: Why does adding thrusters sometimes reduce speed? (4/15/2016 7:27:01 PM)
quote: I also note that there are diminishing returns. 10 engines might get your frigate up to 40 speed, but 20 engines may only get it up to 50. Note that the diminishing returns aspect is dependent upon how you're doing the comparison. Assuming we compare ships of constant size, if Ship A has twice as many drive components as Ship B, then Ship A will be twice as fast as Ship B but Ship A will have had to sacrifice some performance in other areas. Assuming we compare ships of constant capability outside of speed, if Ship A has twice as many drive components as Ship B, then Ship A will be less than twice as fast as Ship B but Ship A will be larger than Ship B. (It is assumed that both vessels in each comparison have sufficient reactor output to fully power everything.) quote: Also, adding too many reactors will slow ... hyperspace speeds No, it won't. As long as your excess reactor output is greater than the power requirement of the hyperdrive you're using, your ship's hyperspeed is equal to the rated hyperspeed of the hyperdrive being used. There is no scenario in which adding more reactors will reduce your hyperspeed because the only way to reduce a design's hyperspeed is to reduce the excess reactor output below the power requirement of the hyperdrive you're using, and the increase in excess reactor output from adding another reactor is significantly greater than the increase in static "energy" requirements from the hab modules and life support components you might need to add to allow you to fit that additional reactor.

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