Are self propelled guns really that weak ? (Full Version)

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Silvarius -> Are self propelled guns really that weak ? (5/3/2001 8:20:00 PM)

Hello, I was reading yesterday on this forum an interesting topic about AT guns. It made me recall a recent battle, where I bought SP guns (not armoured) instead of "normal" guns (it was the first time I tried that). Result : the whole platoon was destroyed in one turn ! A small rifle shot, a pistol bullet shot by an angry crew ... and whhhuf, all goes in flames, vehicule, gun and crew. It seems a bit "excessive". In my mind, only a shell should be able to destroy the whole vehicule (ie : make it explode). Rifle shots and the like should either immobilize the vehicule and/or kill crew members, as it is the case for the "normal" guns. That is the same for trucks. Rifle and MG shots should result most of the time in immobilization, not annihilation ;) . Silvarius.



Voriax -> (5/3/2001 8:33:00 PM)

Hi Well well...first of all, remember that there are really only two types of mobile targets. 'Hard' (tanks, armoured cars) and 'Soft' (trucks, jeeps, infantry) Now these SP guns can be armoured, but they usually have their top open, and in many cases their 'turret' has only a gun shield facing forward. In some cases the gun is installed on a standard truck. While it might be more logical that rifle fire doesn't 'explode' trucks ans SP guns so easily, remember that the 'explosion' is just the game's way of telling you that the vehicle is destroyed! It may be that all crewmembers died, or that the fueltank exploded, or that the turret blew off... There are plenty of things in a combat vehicle that can go boom, especially in an open-topped vehicle that may have powder charges waiting to be loaded into the gun...there's the fuel tank..and perhaps some extra fuel in jerrycans... And I've always felt that if a vehicle goes 'immobile' it means that it can be repaired rather easily. for example it has an empty tyre or ran out of gas...but if an mg-gunner empties a full belt at one unlucky truck it is veeery likely that the truck won't move on that easily -> vehicle is destroyed for game purposes. Just my views... Voriax



Silvarius -> (5/3/2001 11:49:00 PM)

Hi Voriax, I am well aware that many problems can happen in a fight. My feeling is only that it is well too easy to silence a SP gun as compared with field guns. I think the problem comes from a game limitation : unlike the "normal" guns, SP guns are considered as a "whole thing". When it is hit, the whole unit is hit. It cannot loose crew members 1 by 1, and the gun is not separate from the vehicule. What I woulk like (but perhaps it can only be done through a complete rewriting) is the possibility for the vehicule OR the gun AND/OR the crew to be hit. The vehicule should be immobilized rather than destroyed most of the time when hit by small weapons. The gun should be able to be operated as a "normal" gun, that is as long as it has crew members alive and that it is not destroyed by a direct hit (low probability). In brief, a SP gun is only a gun with 4 weels (instead of 2) and a motor. In my mind, it should be considered as such, no more, no less ... Silvarius.



panda124c -> (5/4/2001 1:44:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Silvarius: Hi Voriax, I am well aware that many problems can happen in a fight. My feeling is only that it is well too easy to silence a SP gun as compared with field guns. I think the problem comes from a game limitation : unlike the "normal" guns, SP guns are considered as a "whole thing". When it is hit, the whole unit is hit. It cannot loose crew members 1 by 1, and the gun is not separate from the vehicule. What I woulk like (but perhaps it can only be done through a complete rewriting) is the possibility for the vehicule OR the gun AND/OR the crew to be hit. The vehicule should be immobilized rather than destroyed most of the time when hit by small weapons. The gun should be able to be operated as a "normal" gun, that is as long as it has crew members alive and that it is not destroyed by a direct hit (low probability). In brief, a SP gun is only a gun with 4 weels (instead of 2) and a motor. In my mind, it should be considered as such, no more, no less ... Silvarius.
What you are discribing is not an everyday occurance, I have destroyed self-propelled guns with snipers, not too often, a couple of times. Any way I always consider it from the point of view that even a rifle round into the ammo storage bins can ruin your day. The ammo storage is unarmoured from the top. On the other hand I have fired a bazooka at a self-propelled AT (Mauter) and penatrated 70+ armour on a 0 armour side with nothing happening. It all balances out in the end.



Possum -> (5/4/2001 6:44:00 AM)

Hello. I have, in a variety of campaign scenarioes, found that my truck based SP guns sometimes lose crew members as a result of being hit The guns in question where Russian SU-12's, and Commonwealth Bofors Carriers ( A Personal OOB Mod Unit). Take a look at the information screen next time you have a SP gun take a hit and survive, seemingly unaffected, apart from suppression. I'm sure you will find that it's now short 1 or 2 Crew.



troopie -> (5/4/2001 10:36:00 AM)

Even the armoured ones are kind of weak. I immobilised one with an elephant gun(A personally made weapon) and another with a Lahti AT rifle. troopie



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