Japanese challenge (Full Version)

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Extraneous -> Japanese challenge (5/15/2016 10:30:46 PM)

This is not really a scenario it is just a challenge to see how you would respond to the Chinese setup as the Japanese.

Included is:
A Commonwealth convoy setup (assuming Japan will DoW Venezuela which can be changed if you don't want to allow the DoW),
A French setup to move troops to West Africa, and
A United Soviet Socialist Republic setup to claim Eastern Poland, Bessarabia, and invasion of Persia.


Prelude to Global War

It is Sep/Oct 1939 and the Allied strategy of appeasement has failed and has not satisfied German "Liebestraum", "Irredentismo Italiano", or Japanese ambitions in the far east.


The Allies
China is fighting for its existence in the Second Sino-Japanese War. Is attempting to stem the tide of Japanese aggression.

The Commonwealth with its far flung empire and massive fleet needs time to maintain its commercial shipping lanes and marshal its ground and air forces.

France plans to send forces to its African colonies to bolster its forces there against Italian influences.

The United States trying to slow the rapid decline of the world into the chaos of war. By using its economic and political influence to maintain some kind of order in the world.

The United Soviet Socialist Republic is eyeing ways to increase its borders and its production. Feeling another war with Germany is inevitable.
The USSR plans to:
1) Claim Eastern Poland per a secret agreement with Germany (Second Allied impulse).
2) Claim Bessarabia from Romania using this show of force to reduce the USSR's required contribution to the German/ Soviet trade agreement.
3) Invade Persia and has placed an army on the border.


The Axis
German Chancellor Hitler plans to:
1) Conquer Poland and restore the boundaries of Germany prior to the end of World War I.
2) Honor the neutrality of the Netherlands and Norway at this time.
3) Make the Baltic Sea a German lake with the conquest of Denmark (Second Axis impulse).
4) Invade Belgium and advance through the Ardennes forest to bypass the French Maginot line (Second Axis impulse).
5) Crush France at the earliest possible time.

Italy is embarked upon "Irredentismo Italiano" looking to restore modern Italy to the glory of the Roman empire.
Italy plans to declare war on France and capture French colonies in French North Africa (Second Axis impulse).


As Japan you are engaged in the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Japan will use its political influence to align Siam and force Venezuela to stop the shipment of oil to the Commonwealth.

Your assignment is to promote Japans economic plan for a "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" in China.

Any Japanese losses you incur and the weather (due to your limited number of HQ's) will severely hamper your operations.



[image]local://upfiles/29440/D9E9090D441C42B6BFE96D21645E43CB.jpg[/image]



Extraneous -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/15/2016 10:35:17 PM)

Here is the zipped game file.



Extraneous -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/15/2016 10:36:52 PM)

Map view

[image]local://upfiles/29440/A5C9127777F146E7A4D9B20887F4C50B.jpg[/image]



Jagdtiger14 -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/16/2016 12:46:59 AM)

Mao is sitting there by himself?



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/16/2016 4:16:29 AM)

The Warlords can be placed as far as 6 hexes from their home city.



paulderynck -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/16/2016 8:49:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Mao is sitting there by himself?

Yeah he and the 7-3 corps can be put OoS right off the bat. I'd set-up to do that and take a combined and ground strike Mao and the 3-3 both with two planes each. A bit of good luck and it's bye-bye to pretty much the entire ChiCom army.



Centuur -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/16/2016 2:03:43 PM)

+1



Extraneous -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/16/2016 2:58:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The Warlords can be placed as far as 6 hexes from their home city.


Yes and since it is the middle of Japanese setup they can be moved.

Oh and the map displayed is not exactly correct (German forts disappeared and I had to reload).



[:D] Please post your Japanese setups [:D]




Orm -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/16/2016 4:13:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Map view

[image]local://upfiles/29440/A5C9127777F146E7A4D9B20887F4C50B.jpg[/image]

This is not the Chinese setup that is used in the previously attached game file.

That makes me wonder if it is the right save that you uploaded?



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/16/2016 5:50:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The Warlords can be placed as far as 6 hexes from their home city.


Yes and since it is the middle of Japanese setup they can be moved.

Oh and the map displayed is not exactly correct (German forts disappeared and I had to reload).



[:D] Please post your Japanese setups [:D]



I was referring to the Chinese controlled Warlords. Placing them in their home cities isn't best. They can be farther forward and help hold the front line. For instance, starting the LanChow militia 6 hexes farther east will let it help defend in the north.

EDIT: typos.[:@]



Extraneous -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/17/2016 2:44:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I was referring to the Chinese controlled Warlords. Placing them in their home cities isn't best. They can be farther forward and help hold the front line. For instance, starting the LanChow militia 6 hexes farther east will let it help defend in the north.

EDIT: typos.[:@]


But if you choose to download the saved game you play Japan vs. a Chinese setup I have provided.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

This is not the Chinese setup that is used in the previously attached game file.

That makes me wonder if it is the right save that you uploaded?


I have 3 saved game files:

1) To continue past initial set up.
2) To save to test aspects of the game.
3) This set up.

Since I have already used #1 to check the German set up,
haven't used #2 in awhile, and
have reloaded from #3 to check it out and have delayed submitting this for over a month.

Why don't you download the saved game and check it for me.




Orm -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/17/2016 4:06:07 PM)

quote:

Why don't you download the saved game and check it for me.

I did download and check it.

Edit: The Chinese set up in the save differ from the one shown in your picture.



Orm -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/17/2016 4:10:02 PM)

This is how I would place the Japanese forces against the Chinese set up in the save. The red arrows mark the Japanese moves planed for the first impulse.

[image]local://upfiles/29130/AF7A5D216722484B8AB77ACCE4A510C2.jpg[/image]



Orm -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/17/2016 4:18:03 PM)

On the first impulse Japan would make a +20 attack on the 3 strength Chinese on the coast.

Japan get the odds 5:1 on Changsha after the first impulse movement. But if they attack the city or not depends on the ground strikes. Japan plan to reinforce Canton with the HQ currently in Japan along with other units. Japan should be able to capture the two Southern Chinese resources shown on the picture during the first turn. They might even be able to trace the resource to a factory.

[image]local://upfiles/29130/ABC28CF221D94E1F931C9EBE75696705.jpg[/image]



Extraneous -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/18/2016 9:10:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

On the first impulse Japan would make a +20 attack on the 3 strength Chinese on the coast.

Japan get the odds 5:1 on Changsha after the first impulse movement.
But if they attack the city or not depends on the ground strikes.

Japan plan to reinforce Canton with the HQ currently in Japan along with other units.
Japan should be able to capture the two Southern Chinese resources shown on the picture during the first turn.
They might even be able to trace the resource to a factory.




Just for everyone's information:

The +20 attack on the Chinese 3-3 Inf consists of?

How many aircraft would be committed to the ground strikes?

Your not worried about the Chinese capturing Wuhan?

I was hoping for a copy of your saved set up but this was fine [:D]

[:)] Nice set up [:)]



Centuur -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/18/2016 9:19:01 PM)

Shore bombardment and the CVP are going to be enough to get that 3-3 out of the way. No other planes have to be used. I don't know if he will get +20 exactly, but I guess I could get 24 attacking factors on that 3-3 easily, using the units out of Hainan and the big bad Japanese battlefleet...



Orm -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/19/2016 9:51:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I was hoping for a copy of your saved set up but this was fine [:D]

[:)] Nice set up [:)]


Here is the save.



Orm -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/19/2016 9:55:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The +20 attack on the Chinese 3-3 Inf consists of?



Japan has 14 land factors on Hainan. There is already a fleet at sea that has enough shore bombardment to add another 14 factors to the attack. And it has two carriers that can add two points to the attack. So that is 30:3 or a +20 attack.



Orm -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/19/2016 9:57:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

How many aircraft would be committed to the ground strikes?


I would, probably, just commit the three strength naval bomber.



Orm -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/19/2016 10:10:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Your not worried about the Chinese capturing Wuhan?


It was a concern when I made the setup. Initially I had a unit in Wuhan. I later moved that unit to the hex West of Umezu. During the first impulse it can still move to Wuhan if Japan so desires.

But when I planned for the Japanese route of attack I moved it to be included in the Japanese attack force. Where it can guard the Japanese supply line instead of a city with limited importance. If China advance towards Wuhan, and maybe even Nanking, it can be annoying but this area can be cleared later. And the more units China has there the less there are in the way of the Japanese advance. The goal with this setup is to take the two southern resources fast and then follow up with capturing the road to Kweiyang. Thereby threatening to march on Chunking or Kunming. Not many Chinese defend this route of attack and if China send units to Wuhan then they will be vulnerable to Japanese infiltration of the Chinese defences.




Extraneous -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/19/2016 10:18:01 PM)

Since the US has allocated 1 entry chit to the Ja entry pool at this time (Menu Bar: "Info" + "US Entry Pools" (F9)).

Orm has noted that at this time Japan doesn't need to worry about the USSR DoWing Japan (-1 US entry chit + 70% chance of another from the Ja entry pool (Menu Bar: "Info" + "US entry Options" (Ctrl+E))).
And plans to move troops from Manchuria.

How we doing so far [&:]





Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/20/2016 1:29:46 AM)

China versus Japan is all about the number of Chinese land units on the map.

If Japan can destroy more than China can build each turn, then eventually Japan takes all the Chinese cities.

This makes the number of resources (and factories) that China controls very important. Losing the two resources in the south isn't good. Japan has a lot more build points, and while it has other things to do (getting ready for the US entry in a couple of years), it can afford to build 2 or more land units a turn, to make up for any losses it incurs. China doesn't have that luxury: losing resources means lower production and therefore fewer reinforcements. Should Japan be able to route the captured Chinese resources back to Japan, then that will also add to the Japanese production.

Even worse for China is the division of Nationalist and Communist land units, and the random draw of one or the other each turn. While China might want its reinforcements to arrive in the south (or north) drawing Communist (or Nationalist) units can result in the reinforcements arriving in the wrong cities.

So it is vital that every Chinese unit does its duty, standing in the front line in good defensive hexes, avoiding being cutoff from supply, and forcing Japan to attack at unfavorable odds. Chinese units on the coast are toast: Japanese shore bombardment and carrier air units can easily triple the land attack strength of Japanese units.



Jagdtiger14 -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/20/2016 4:31:05 AM)

quote:

So it is vital that every Chinese unit does its duty, standing in the front line in good defensive hexes, avoiding being cutoff from supply, and forcing Japan to attack at unfavorable odds. Chinese units on the coast are toast: Japanese shore bombardment and carrier air units can easily triple the land attack strength of Japanese units.


This is absolutely correct. The Chinese set up in the south is very flawed. NEVER put a Chinese unit on the coast...unless Japan is withdrawing from China altogether later in the game.

As the Chinese I would have defended the city line from Nanning to Changsha, and certain other hexes in line and behind in the MTN's. Ultimately the city line can not hold against determined Japanese attacks, but the way to Kweiyang is an obvious route (both from the east as well as the south)...but highly defensive.




brian brian -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/20/2016 6:10:38 AM)

Is the Yangtze 'River Road' hard coded into MWiF? (A major change to the map). I can never understand why so many MWiF players are fascinated by having the Chinese defend a route that is useless to the Japanese. It leads into the mountains, precisely where the Chinese want them to go. The River Road doesn't really go far enough though to be all that useful though. If Japan wants to approach Chunking by the hardest route with the least amount of strategic value, let them.

Japan is interested in resource hexes for themselves first and reducing Chinese production second. The Chinese shouldn't give things away, but neither should they just sit around waiting to be eliminated.

Nanning is an important hex to hold in the long-term, and would be lost on Turn 1 with this set-up, at least against a Japanese player that has seen the mid-game in China. Kunming would also be in some danger, and that would be very bad for China. The Japanese could likely blockade the hex, pretty much permanently, if they couldn't defeat the WarLord unit there before reinforcements arrive possibly on Turn 3 or more likely Turn 4 at best. A drive there would gain the Japanese little in the short-term but much in the long-term.

China's most valuable units at start are the two CAV units, their most mobile units. If held in reserve, they are the only units that have a good chance to respond to the Japanese axes of advance. Japan holds ALL of the strategic initiative for the first several years of the war, unless perhaps the USSR launches a DOW, though that can usually be a great opportunity for the Axis anyway.

I would also probably use the Japanese ART to attempt pin the Chinese FTR in the front-line and hopefully destroy it (Pilots always lost on a ground loss of an aircraft unit) before it could rebase away. It would be some time before it could be replaced. Drawing the long-range Mohawk is a bit of luck, it really helps deter the development of a Japanese Strategic Bombing campaign until the Japanese can get their 1940 Zeroes deployed. Even then it forces a flight by a Zero for each bombing run and does more as a Force in Being than it does by actually fighting.

The Nationalists holding Chengchow in strength is good, but they have to defend the south as well. They don't have railroads to zip around their country with as on other parts of the map. Japan holds most of the good routes and will be blocking the rest quickly.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/20/2016 9:13:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Is the Yangtze 'River Road' hard coded into MWiF? (A major change to the map).

Yes.

During the war, the rivers served as a major transportation conduit for supply. But they were not the equivalent of railroads for the purposes of moving troops. We made a design decision to simulate this by putting in a few roads. So the roads are essentially there to simulate river traffic. We placed them so if the enemy has a ZOC onto the river, the road doesn't work for supply (unless occupied by a friendly land unit, of course).



Extraneous -> RE: Japanese challenge (5/21/2016 9:02:21 PM)

Ready for the next step [&:]



Extraneous -> RE: Polish challenge (5/27/2016 2:26:06 AM)

The Germans are ready to invade Poland anyone want to set up the Poles[&:]



[image]local://upfiles/29440/49A76DFC45514F6FB37EA222C06BAA48.jpg[/image]



Extraneous -> RE: Polish challenge (5/27/2016 2:27:08 AM)

The file



Jagdtiger14 -> RE: Polish challenge (5/27/2016 3:23:35 AM)

It looks like a Fall Weiss by the Germans (I'm not a fan). Besides disagreeing with the overall strategy, the German set up is greatly flawed. I cant see everything other than the top units, but the two stacks in south East Prussia will be OOS to begin the German turn.



Joseignacio -> RE: Polish challenge (5/27/2016 8:48:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

It looks like a Fall Weiss by the Germans (I'm not a fan). Besides disagreeing with the overall strategy, the German set up is greatly flawed. I cant see everything other than the top units, but the two stacks in south East Prussia will be OOS to begin the German turn.



Say what?

- They can get supply from Konigsberg
- Were not Konigsberg there, they would still get it by sea in clear weather, and with no enemy presence...



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