Scrapping Units (Full Version)

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Ostwindflak -> Scrapping Units (5/16/2016 3:16:04 AM)

I was wondering if someone could offer advice on unit scrapping.

1. Is it necessary for most major powers to do on Turn 1?

2. It seems that mostly older air units should go on Turn 1, is this correct?

3. Is there any benefit to scrapping land units on Turn 1? (i.e. Germany scraping a 4-4 and some 5-3 infantry units and the U.S. scraping early garrisons etc.)



christo -> RE: Scraping Units (5/16/2016 3:29:30 AM)

scrap hard and scrap often
there are some exceptions though

-the 0 cost CV air units can be very useful to help with gearing limits
-the 4 move german INF is more mobile then many. Useful to get Denmark quickly. Also then helps garrison ratios




Jagdtiger14 -> RE: Scraping Units (5/16/2016 4:03:24 AM)

It all depends on the country and sometimes on your strategy. I like to be very careful with what I scrap as opposed to "scrap hard and scrap often".



warspite1 -> RE: Scraping Units (5/16/2016 8:21:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I was wondering if someone could offer advice on unit scraping.

1. Is it necessary for most major powers to do on Turn 1?

2. It seems that mostly older air units should go on Turn 1, is this correct?

3. Is there any benefit to scraping land units on Turn 1? (i.e. Germany scraping a 4-4 and some 5-3 infantry units and the U.S. scraping early garrisons etc.)
warspite1

Have a look at some of the AAR's, there are some good pointers here.

E.g. brian brian states that you should never scrap any US TRS.

All sides should scrap their 2-quality fighters

Ditto their rubbish range submarines

Japan, the US and CW should take an axe to many of their ancient carrier air.

I scrap very few (if any) land units.



paulderynck -> RE: Scraping Units (5/16/2016 8:41:56 AM)

The US has several horrid MOT corps that need to go, but you may not be able to scrap them right off the bat. OTOH the USSR should not scrap their bad Garrison units until they die at least once.

Good points above. I too would never scrap any US TRSs - even the 3-2 can re-org an Essex CV in a pinch. OTOH Japan can part with the their oldest TRSs.

Keep a few of the zero cost CVPs - especially with the CW because the CW has issues with which CVPs will fit on which CVs for the first 2 or 3 years of game time. And as stated above, they are handy for maintaining aircraft gearing. The downside is you might draw a bunch of them at game start because there's no discriminating between them and the better 1-costing CVPs.



Ostwindflak -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/16/2016 3:56:00 PM)

Thanks for the pointers. I'll check out that AAR too.

I think I went a little overboard with some scrapping on Turn 1. I did get rid of a lot of the older aircraft, then found myself in a position with the CW that saw only 3 carriers with planes on them.

I did get rid of an older U.S. sub as the range on it was bad and I think it was a 1-3 GAR unit.

I only scraped 2 air units from Russia, the old I-15s.

I got rid of the 4-4 Infantry unit from Germany as I saw much better units coming in within the year, but in hindsight I probably should have kept it.

Of course I did all this before making this post. I suppose my uneasiness with the scrapping mechanic led me to post. I never used to do it before because I never fully understood it, but I am trying to learn it and get more comfortable with it.



Orm -> RE: Scraping Units (5/16/2016 4:19:24 PM)

In oil games I scrap all the bad motorized corps. Edit: Although beware that the bad MOT can be used to break down for motorized divisions, that will be used for losses if you play with 2d10.

Do not scrap division size units.

Scrap most, if not all, bad bombers. Air transports are excepted and should only be scrapped in rare cases.



Ostwindflak -> RE: Scraping Units (5/16/2016 5:07:28 PM)

quote:

Although beware that the bad MOT can be used to break down for motorized divisions, that will be used for losses if you play with 2d10


I opted to not play with the 2d10 CRT. I saw in the rules that it helps with HQs attacking cities, but beyond that I didn't see where it would be useful.



AlbertN -> RE: Scraping Units (5/16/2016 5:10:25 PM)

As an Axis player - for Germany I never scrap land units; I feel all the force pool can be needed.
For the German airforce I use a custom golden rule that if a Fighter has 5+ Air to Air rating, I keep it (at least til '43, and as my games sunk at that time I never discovered if I want to keep them around later on or not). For the bombers I tend to rely on 3 tactical factor. NAVs I never scrap, Germany has too few in general and they give that juicy +1 for the naval searches that can come handy.
Ships wise - I scrap a lot of TRS / AMPH (Not a believer of Sea Lion), and trying to ensure to have a 4-4 TRS where possible.

Japan - the 0 cost thing is true but you may want to keep them low or you risk to be unlucky in your opening picks. Usually of the "0" costing CVPs I keep either the ones with 3 of air to air rating, and anything with 2 air to sea rating. Any starting LND with 2 of tactical factor is golden (For Japanese standards). I scrap the 1 with everything NAV and the 3 air to air FTRs.
Land units, I do not scrap any Japanase land unit except the 1-5 MECH division.
Ships wise, any CVL with 4 movement ... rarely you'll have the BPs to produce them and the cost to cover for your airplane. You start with one and that usually ends up in escort duty to your CPs.
I want to make sure I get all 4-4 TRS movement wise, and I scrap the older. I can produce new ones in 1940 and I'll be short of BPs to produce other TRS in general. No point in having subpar units when I know I've not the cash to spare for them.

Italy - Italy scraps a lot of planes (I scrap also the LND with reorg value. I'd rather cross fingers for more hopes for a Sparviero or at least a Leone). Same for Germany, LND with tactical 3 or superior are to be kept (unless they have range 2!). I scrap the 2-2 ART unit. (Italy has decent bombers, Japan needs all the ARTs they can get the hands on because of crappy bombers!)
Ships wise, I scrap what is 4 moving. Land units I keep them (also the 3-3 INF when destroyed).

Axis needs all the land units they can get the hands on, over time.

Some other tips - especially at the start of the game for production, check carefully what will disappear with the coming of 1940 (ie. German LNDs! They have lots and lots of trash in that pool).
Remember of the Lend Lease for planes (You'll want once the 1940 hits to lend the Ju88 with 3 tactical factors to Italy turning it into a 5 one); and do not scrap the Bf109 that is a pure 5 air to air FTR (That one turns into a 6 air to air Italian fighter. Just wait for it to be shot down at some point by the W.Allies or so and lend it over. Do not scrap it.)

Another concept that some could forget is that you never know how the game unfolds.
Should I scrap German BBs and CVs? I never do. Will I produce it, I do not know, I doubt... but things can happen, and I may decide to build a navy at some point, and if I do - best to think in great!




Ostwindflak -> RE: Scraping Units (5/16/2016 6:07:13 PM)

When I scrapped most the German bi-planes I got lucky and pulled 3 109-Es from the pool to start with.

Looking at some of the AARs I see that most people scrap ART units to start with. Are the 75mm ARTs that bad? I kept the ones I had.



AlbertN -> RE: Scraping Units (5/16/2016 6:34:32 PM)

German FTR2 should be standard in 1939. You get 7, you get the 4 Bf109e, Bf109b and Bf109c and the He110.



paulderynck -> RE: Scraping Units (5/16/2016 7:42:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

When I scrapped most the German bi-planes I got lucky and pulled 3 109-Es from the pool to start with.

Looking at some of the AARs I see that most people scrap ART units to start with. Are the 75mm ARTs that bad? I kept the ones I had.

It's a question of bang for the buck. 4 build points for two factors seems expensive. Sometimes you must keep them to satisfy what's called for in the set-up. But chances are you'd prefer not to build the two-factor version if the 3 or more factor version is available. Chances also are it's not a pool that's advantageous to build out.



Ostwindflak -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/17/2016 1:08:40 PM)

If I scrap a unit that is already in play, does it remove it from the game board too or just from the pool, so if it is destroyed it can't be re-built/picked again during production?



Courtenay -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/17/2016 3:30:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

If I scrap a unit that is already in play, does it remove it from the game board too or just from the pool, so if it is destroyed it can't be re-built/picked again during production?

You can't scrap units in play. Only newly destroyed units or very old units in the force pool.

Once a unit is scrapped, it is gone.



Courtenay -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/17/2016 3:34:32 PM)

One unit I always scrap is the French black print MTN unit. This is to force the French to get the white print MTN unit. I can put the white print MTN unit in the northern hex of the Italian front, and not worry about the fact that the Italians can put the unit out of supply with their MTN unit. This saves a French unit that can go on the German front the first turn.

After a while, in my group the Germans always went for early France strategy, so we worked hard at stopping it. This was one of the ways to do so.



Ostwindflak -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/17/2016 7:09:51 PM)

I should have been more clear, but it is probably because I don't fully understand scrapping yet.

I am under the impression that if you scrap say a 4-4 INF unit, all 4-4 INF units in that pool are no longer able to be pulled. From your response I am gathering that is not the case. Scrapping a unit is just that, THE unit scrapped is no longer available, but other units (with say 4-4 attributes) can still be plucked from the pool?



Orm -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/17/2016 7:17:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

Scrapping a unit is just that, THE unit scrapped is no longer available, but other units (with say 4-4 attributes) can still be plucked from the pool?

Indeed.

You only scrap just that individual unit. The rest of that type remain where they are located.



Ostwindflak -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/17/2016 7:24:39 PM)

Thanks for the clarification Orm.



Ostwindflak -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/19/2016 6:03:20 PM)

With your guys help I restarted and got the scrapping to where I think it needs to be. I am happy with the results. I even did a much better job positioning convoys, naval assets, and land counters. I opted for the 2D10 CRT this go around. I found that even attacking with high odds as Germans against Poland was harsh with the 2D10. I lost more units than I would like to admit. I didn't see these kind of losses with the 1D10. So now something else to get a handle on, the 2D10 CRT.

Edit: While scrapping, whenever I saw a submarine I kept hearing warspite1 in my head "rubbish range submarines". I made sure those got the axe this time around.



Jagdtiger14 -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/20/2016 4:10:50 AM)

quote:

Edit: While scrapping, whenever I saw a submarine I kept hearing warspite1 in my head "rubbish range submarines". I made sure those got the axe this time around.


I assume you mean German subs? Actually, it depends on what your strategy is. If you close the Med and have a naval strategy with Germany ('42 Barb), then just about every SUB is worthwhile...even if just for initiating purposes.

I consider speed more important than range.



brian brian -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/20/2016 6:16:43 AM)

I can never accurately figure out scrapping for the French and what that will mean for what I hope the Free French can do later in the war, but then I have played a lot more with the alternative Vichy rules than without. Returning to RaW Vichy confuses me. So I just scrap their 2 factor ART, maybe a mid-30s FTR (?), and nothing else.



Jagdtiger14 -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/20/2016 6:32:06 AM)

quote:

I can never accurately figure out scrapping for the French and what that will mean for what I hope the Free French can do later in the war, but then I have played a lot more with the alternative Vichy rules than without. Returning to RaW Vichy confuses me. So I just scrap their 2 factor ART, maybe a mid-30s FTR (?), and nothing else.







Concerning France, if I had no intention of spending BP's on say...ARTY, then I would scrap away in that unit type. I think it all depends on what type of units you plan on purchasing and how many.

I hear you about the alternative Vichy rules. I love that system!



Ostwindflak -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/20/2016 4:54:36 PM)

A few German subs and a U.S. sub Jagdtiger14.



paulderynck -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/20/2016 7:58:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I can never accurately figure out scrapping for the French and what that will mean for what I hope the Free French can do later in the war, but then I have played a lot more with the alternative Vichy rules than without. Returning to RaW Vichy confuses me. So I just scrap their 2 factor ART, maybe a mid-30s FTR (?), and nothing else.

As I favor having the largest possible FF navy, I never scrap French TRS or AMPHs if it means there'll be an odd number of them in their force pool in 1940 - since FF gets half of those - but rounded down.



Centuur -> RE: Scrapping Units (5/21/2016 1:34:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I can never accurately figure out scrapping for the French and what that will mean for what I hope the Free French can do later in the war, but then I have played a lot more with the alternative Vichy rules than without. Returning to RaW Vichy confuses me. So I just scrap their 2 factor ART, maybe a mid-30s FTR (?), and nothing else.

As I favor having the largest possible FF navy, I never scrap French TRS or AMPHs if it means there'll be an odd number of them in their force pool in 1940 - since FF gets half of those - but rounded down.


Agreed. The Free French TRS are very valuable in the game.



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