Rifle brigades... why? (Full Version)

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RoflCopter4 -> Rifle brigades... why? (5/17/2016 8:22:46 AM)

Are rifle brigades good for anything at all? I don't even know what to do with them. I don't need them at the front, I already have too many divisions there. They're terrible at building fortifications, and are obviously totally useless in combat. They can't even be used for suicide pincer raids since they're brigades and don't have a ZOC, I might as well use cavalry for that. I just don't even know what to do with them. It'll be another 27 turns before I can build them up into divisions (I plan to save up AP and eliminate very last one of them on the first turn of May).

I thought they might be handy for a "put a unit in every single hex for 5 hexes deep" type defense in depth stuff, but that really doesn't seem necessary. My front line is already cramped enough that divisions often don't have anywhere to retreat and rout instead. Given that the Germans seem totally stalled at this point and this fact it seems rather pointless to crowd the front further in this way.

The German AI, incidentally, has made a pretty pathetic show so far, allowing me to evacuate over 75% of the western front on the first few turns rather than its usual destruction. They are only a few miles across the Romanian border in the south, and have tried and failed to even get to Proskurov. My forts in and around Kiev have been pointless, it is in no danger. They have failed to take Smolensk and are unlikely to even get to Novgorod in the north once the mud clears. I've pocketed and destroyed 4 German infantry divisions and numerous Rumanian divisions, which is a small number compared with my own losses of course, but the Germans really should not be losing any full divisions in the summer of 1941.

But anyway, I just have all of them hanging out around Moscow in a rather ridiculous swarm of units. I imagine them parading around the Kremlin and otherwise getting into various fraternization related shenanigans. Should I just leave them there and let their experience build up for when I can finally use them come May? Am I an idiot who's fostered a false sense of security? What do you guys use them for?



rmonical -> RE: Rifle brigades... why? (5/17/2016 11:15:51 AM)

After you crank of the German AI to challenging and start over, one of the best things rifle brigades do is keep fort hexes from deteriorating. So, once a division builds up a fort and moves on, stick a brigade in the fort and it will continue to strengthen and not dissipate. Very useful when you have multiple layers of fort.



timmyab -> RE: Rifle brigades... why? (5/17/2016 12:23:00 PM)

You wont need them verses the AI. Against a strong human opponent they are useful mainly for deep defense to contain breakouts and raids.
As mentioned already they're also useful for constructing and especially maintaining forts.




morvael -> RE: Rifle brigades... why? (5/17/2016 12:47:36 PM)

1) They have no active ZOC, the one that captures terrain when you move. But they still have passive ZOC, the one that slows down enemy units when they move nearby. So they can be useful to cover more ground with ZOC.
2) They can man forts built by others, as was already noted, and prevent them from disappearing (at higher fort levels they will actually build with the same speed as rifle divisions, since every unit at least builds 1 fort point - 2% - per turn).
3) They can man "Finnish No Attack Line" (and be of some use once you invade Finland, as opposed to forts, which you will have to disband).
4) Units smaller than a division have bonus to initiative and to reserve activation. Initiative also helps them to fire more efficiently in combat. So they should be good reserve units, and this works well with #1 and #2.
5) You can use them to build corps from two rifle divisions and a brigade. Why waste three divisions? They get a free upgrade to a division that way.
6) You can use them to initialize construction of defensive lines, really away from the front (like 30-40 hexes away), for which you can't spare divisions manning the front, if you can expect dangerous enemy offensive (and you can if summer 1942 is approaching).

Previously they also had minimum morale of 50, and this made them too good (they were used to create morale 50 rifle divisions). Players were spamming those brigades.

So while I wouldn't build as many rifle brigades as before, I woild find uses for every one that comes as reinforcements, and I would certainly build more in the corps forming period, to make more rifle corps out of my divisions.



Manstein63 -> RE: Rifle brigades... why? (5/18/2016 1:52:28 PM)

As what Morvael said, you can also use them as pickets in front of your MLR if its done right your opponent will have to waste MP's attacking the unit or waste MP's to bypass & risk not having enough points left to attack your proper FL. Also it exposes his units to possible counter attack.
Manstein63



morvael -> RE: Rifle brigades... why? (5/18/2016 1:54:56 PM)

I would be careful with pickets. Units smaller than a division are easier to shatter. I think my opponent lost a few tank brigades that way.



Manstein63 -> RE: Rifle brigades... why? (5/18/2016 2:01:40 PM)

That's why I would only use infantry brigades for picket duty rather than Tank brigades, they might rout but I have found that they don't tend to shatter.
Manstein63



RoflCopter4 -> RE: Rifle brigades... why? (5/19/2016 8:59:21 PM)

A few questions.

1. The manual states that rifle corps are "the sum of three divisions", I took this to mean that they were literally the sum of the three units used to form them and have consequently never used brigades to make them. I take it I am wrong here? Do rifle corps have their own TOE that is equal to three divisions and therefore if a brigade is used to form them it becomes a division for all intents and purposes as well?

2. Should I actually restart from scratch with the difficulty up? I have a rather frightening amount of time sunk into this campaign and am rather weary of restarting, but given that I've just completely destroyed 9 freaking German divisions, including 3 panzer divisions and two motorized divisions on the first turn of the blizzard I rather doubt I should expect much of a counterattack come spring, given that Germany has very little capacity to rebuild that many units in addition to the losses they will likely take during the rest of the winter.

Perhaps I should take your advice nonetheless and prepare more extensive defenses. I just find the micromanagement of them to be somewhat overwhelming. Trying to set up long defensive lines is a pain because I quickly fill up my available armies and when they're thinly manned they quickly extend out of command range. Furthermore my habit of trying to assign each and every army a unique color becomes more and more difficult. Should I just not bother to put these secondary line units in armies at all and just attach them to STAVKA? I was under the impression that they wouldn't build much at all when out of command range.



ericv -> RE: Rifle brigades... why? (5/20/2016 9:17:57 AM)

As to 2. :

The AI has certain weaknesses, one of them is that it is prone to encirclements. t would make for a more challenging and interesting game if you don't encircle his units until maybe summer 1943. Let him play 1942 fullstrength. HE'll just advance and won't encircle that much.
Definitely turn the difficulty up if you've got some experience. Try 125 german morale, 85/90 soviet morale, 125 german supply, 95/100 soviet supply, 110/115 german fort (125 is ok if you like fighting against lvl 3 forts all the time), 90 soviet fort. admin and railcap can be set to 400 for germany, it doesn't matter that much. 80/100 admin for the soviet player. 80 rail for the soviet is more than enough against the AI.

you can pretty much put all your units in armies and still be in supply, even in harsh mud conditions. Ural and south ural M.D are adminpoint free(reassigning armies and SU's from them to the frontline costst nothing). set them as the HQ of some armies and put your superfluous divisions under them. One exta HQ rolls.(not sure however if that makes a difference at all)

why bother with giving every army its own color??

As to 1., i am curious as well. I ususally build a lot of Rifle Corps using 2 divisions and 1 brigade (Ending up with way too many Corps, the Soviet army CAN have too many units), being under the impression that the TOE remains the same. But have to admit, I never really checked it.



RoflCopter4 -> RE: Rifle brigades... why? (5/20/2016 10:18:52 PM)

It appears that contrary to the manual, rifle corps are indeed their own TOE, it just so happens that the TOE is equal to three rifle divisions combined. So forming one with a rifle brigade and two divisions results in the same thing as three divisions, with the only difference obviously being that it will be somewhat under strength at first.

I assign them all their own color because I can keep them within command range of their HQ far easier that way, since I know at a glance where my armies are. I took some screenshots to show this but apparently I can't link them.

As to the surrounding thing, I decided it was rather silly to be doing that, and gave the AI a little "help" by playing much of a turn as the Germans and rescuing their more ridiculous islands of units. If I'd played as aggressively as I would want to I would have ended up destroying 10 infantry divisions, 2 motorized divisions, and 4 panzer divisions within a few turns without even trying very hard. I agree the AI needs to be turned up and I should play with some "house rules" so to speak.



ericv -> RE: Rifle brigades... why? (5/21/2016 2:01:48 PM)

You need to post 15 times or so to be able to link pictures and hyperlinks. Spam protection prolly.

If you really want a challenge try another Human, if that's your kind of thing.






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