Sea area movement for USA (Full Version)

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Coaltar -> Sea area movement for USA (6/17/2016 11:26:39 AM)

Hello All,
I am trying to figure out how to move land units from the US to either Hawaii or Europe. What would be the steps to get units to either place? The US is not at war yet.
Also, I am not sure but I can't tell if I can move more than 1 sea area in an impulse. I know it has to do with your range and movement points but the only unit I have been able to move more than 1 sea area is the Catalina. I wanted to verify that it takes 1 MP to get to the sea area from a port and then 1 more MP for each section of the sea box. If you move to the 0 section from a port that should be 2 MPs then the next sea area should cost 1 more MP and then going to the 0 section should still only be 3 MP. Is that correct?
Thanks for all the help,
Coal



Courtenay -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/17/2016 1:08:02 PM)

I have been thinking about what your problem is, and the only thing that I can come up with is that you were trying to move a large stack of US units all at once. This does not work. The US is at peace, so the US can only take combined or pass actions, and in a combined they only get three naval moves. Furthermore, when a country is at peace, each ship moving counts as a naval move. Thus the US can only move three naval units an impulse. If you try and move more than three US naval units at once, nothing will happen.

If the action limits are not the problem, I don't have any idea what is going on, and need more information. You should be able to move US naval units a long distance; the range five units can get about half way across the Pacific. Even the range three units can get from the West Coast to adjacent to Hawaii



Joseignacio -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/17/2016 3:09:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coaltar

Hello All,
I am trying to figure out how to move land units from the US to either Hawaii or Europe. What would be the steps to get units to either place? The US is not at war yet.
Also, I am not sure but I can't tell if I can move more than 1 sea area in an impulse. I know it has to do with your range and movement points but the only unit I have been able to move more than 1 sea area is the Catalina. I wanted to verify that it takes 1 MP to get to the sea area from a port and then 1 more MP for each section of the sea box. If you move to the 0 section from a port that should be 2 MPs then the next sea area should cost 1 more MP and then going to the 0 section should still only be 3 MP. Is that correct?
Thanks for all the help,
Coal


Not exactly. Yo need to think in a different way, it's not just MPs, you have two concepts, range and movement:

quote:

11.4.2 Moving naval units
You can move your naval units through a series of adjacent sea areas and ports.
Each naval unit has a range and a movement allowance. The range determines how far the unit can move; the movement allowance determines how effective it will be when it patrols a sea area.


quote:

How far can units move?
A unit must stop moving when you have spent its entire movement allowance or it has reached the limit of its range, whichever happens first.
You spend 1 point of a unit’s range:
ï for each sea area and port it moves into.
You spend 1 point of a unit’s movement allowance:
ï for each sea area and port it moves into;
ï if it starts the movement out of supply;
ï if it starts the impulse in a port with naval units controlled by another major power; and
ï for each point of the (unmodified) search number of the section you put the unit into.


In this case Range should not be a problem cause all (IIRW) TRS or AMPH can move at least 2 Range away and 3 movement away.

But you got it wrong, from a port to the 0 box of a bordering sea it's only 1 MP and 1 "Range Point" spent. The 0 box is reached for free, because that's where you arrive, it's the 1 - 4 the ones which cost you more MPs.

You only spent one MP and one Range. You can still move from the 0 box to a nearby sea 0 box for 1 MP, and then another one to another one, ..., or go up in the first or the second sea, ..., from box 0 to box 1, 2, 3, or 4, or any combination of both, ...

...but if you go up to a 1 box (for example to try to be better protected in case you were intercepted in that sea) in any sea (spending 1 extra MP) and you want to go on to another sea, then you need to spend 1 MP to go down to 0 box and 1 MP and 1 Range to go to the next sea's 0 box.



paulderynck -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/17/2016 7:02:20 PM)

.. deleted



paulderynck -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/17/2016 7:14:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Coaltar

Hello All,
I am trying to figure out how to move land units from the US to either Hawaii or Europe. What would be the steps to get units to either place? The US is not at war yet.
Also, I am not sure but I can't tell if I can move more than 1 sea area in an impulse. I know it has to do with your range and movement points but the only unit I have been able to move more than 1 sea area is the Catalina. I wanted to verify that it takes 1 MP to get to the sea area from a port and then 1 more MP for each section of the sea box. If you move to the 0 section from a port that should be 2 MPs then the next sea area should cost 1 more MP and then going to the 0 section should still only be 3 MP. Is that correct?
Thanks for all the help,
Coal

Each sea area or port you enter costs one movement point and one range point. Once in a sea area a naval unit can spend one movement point and zero range points to go up one sea box. FREX a CA with a range of 5 and movement of 6 can go out one or two sea zones and still get to the 4 sea box. Each additional sea zone it goes to beyond the second will mean it can go one less sea box higher.

There are other factors that affect movement points - supply (-1), mixing allies in the same port (-1) and the optional Presence of the Enemy rule (-1 per sea zone with enemy presence). Of course these (other than perhaps supply) would not be affecting a neutral USA at this point in the game.

You mentioned a Catalina. Aircraft are much different. They pay one movement to enter a sea zone and then 1 to get to the one box, 2 more to get to the two box, etc. So to get an aircraft to the 4-box of an adjacent sea zone (i.e. no land hexes to traverse before entering it) would cost 11 movement points. Range and movement are the same for aircraft. Very long range aircraft can fly across sea zones by paying one movement point per sea dot and then may have enough movement left to get up a few sea boxes in the sea zone they are placed in. Or they may just rebase across sea zones flying double or triple range.



Coaltar -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/20/2016 1:21:39 AM)

Thanks all for the info. I will do some experiments and see if I get lucky and learn this stuff!



Joseignacio -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/20/2016 8:50:40 AM)

It's not so difficult, maybe explaining is what can get messy, maybe that's why.

Imagine you have two counters. One counts movement points as usual. The other counts seas and ports you enter.

* Everytime you enter a sea or port you spend one of each.
* Everytime you go up or down in section in any one sea (or several seas) you spend only movement, not range. Remember you can only travel from sea to sea or from sea to port through the 0 boxes so you may need to go up or down sometimes.

There are also some exceptional factors that can affect only to MPs:

- Starting Out of Supply and
- Sharing a port with another MP (even friendly and cooperative, yes).

Even more exceptional is the Rough Seas optional rule which is not usually selected and affects only lighter units (cruisers, TRSs, ...) where entering one or more seas in blizzard or storm those light units would have one less mp and range than printed (Not per sea, one time penalty).



rkr1958 -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/20/2016 1:30:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

It's not so difficult, maybe explaining is what can get messy, maybe that's why.

Imagine you have two counters. One counts movement points as usual. The other counts seas and ports you enter.

* Everytime you enter a sea or port you spend one of each.
* Everytime you go up or down in section in any one sea (or several seas) you spend only movement, not range. Remember you can only travel from sea to sea or from sea to port through the 0 boxes so you may need to go up or down sometimes.

There are also some exceptional factors that can affect only to MPs:

- Starting Out of Supply and
- Sharing a port with another MP (even friendly and cooperative, yes).

Even more exceptional is the Rough Seas optional rule which is not usually selected and affects only lighter units (cruisers, TRSs, ...) where entering one or more seas in blizzard or storm those light units would have one less mp and range than printed (Not per sea, one time penalty).
That's an excellent way of explaining naval movement. I've never played the board game, so I've always let the computer make those calculations. With respect to sea movement I had envisioned moving though the highest sea box possible in each area, which decreases as you expend the top MP factors. However, the way you described it makes perfect sense. If I have a 6-4 CA unit, for example. When I move out of port into an adjacent sea area and the 0-box it's movement is now 5-3. Then to the 0-box of a second sea area (4-2), 0-box of a third sea (3-1) and the 0-box of a forth sea area (2-0). I've exhausted my sea area (bottom) points but have 2 top movement points left. So I can use those 2 points to move up 2 boxes from 0 to the 2 box, 4 sea areas away. Brilliant!



Joseignacio -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/20/2016 2:32:58 PM)

Thanks!

Btw, here

quote:

There are also some exceptional factors that can affect only to MPs:

- Starting Out of Supply and
- Sharing a port with another MP (even friendly and cooperative, yes).


The first MP stands for movement points, but the second for Major Power... [:)]



Coaltar -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/20/2016 4:40:28 PM)

Thanks again!
So I think I have a handle on the ships but the plane movement at sea still baffles me.
I have a P40C (MP = 8) in San Diego. It is the Naval Air phase for the USA and I would think that since I only have 8 points that is all I would be able to spend. Yet, the program tells me I have spent 11 points after touching down in Hawaii. How is this so?
Thanks again for all the great help.
Coal



paulderynck -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/20/2016 6:10:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Coaltar

Thanks again!
So I think I have a handle on the ships but the plane movement at sea still baffles me.
I have a P40C (MP = 8) in San Diego. It is the Naval Air phase for the USA and I would think that since I only have 8 points that is all I would be able to spend. Yet, the program tells me I have spent 11 points after touching down in Hawaii. How is this so?
Thanks again for all the great help.
Coal

That should not be. We'd need a saved game posted to understand what is going on or if there's a bug.

Moving planes into sea areas for naval air missions is described in the last paragraph of Post #5.



Coaltar -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/21/2016 1:42:02 AM)

OK, so it seems there is no way to get short range aircraft (no extended range) any further than 1 sea zone from the west coast of the US. Of course they could be transported (and I am assuming that is the only way). Even long range bombers, say the B25C (with 5 extended range) can't make it to Hawaii since it only has 10 mp with extended range if using standard rules. There are no land hexes in any of the second sea zones on the way to Hawaii and to cross the shortest zone (Mendocino) takes 19 sea hexes to get to the Hawaiian Islands zone. Lets say it does have exactly 21 MP. Would 21 allow me to fly to the Hawaiian Islands sea zone and occupy the 0 section? 1 mp to take off and get to the 0 section of the West Coast Zone, 19 to cross Mendocino and 1 more to move to the 0 section in the Hawaiian Islands sea zone. Is that correct?
Unfortunately I can't save the game in the middle of a move but I found something else that is strange. I have a P-40C, Devastator, and P-35 in the West Coast sea zone 0 section. When I hover over the Hawaiian Islands with the P-40C or P-35 selected it shows that is is 24 MP, but when try the Devastator is shows 9 mp. Should that be so? It seems to be an intermittent phenomenon since I just went back to very the MPs and they all show 9 mp now. Maybe it was a refresh problem. I will send the file as soon as I can save it.
Thanks



Coaltar -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/21/2016 1:47:47 AM)

See attached.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/21/2016 4:21:57 AM)

There is an optional rule that lets air units fly triple their range when rebasing - assuming they are not flying over enemy controlled hexes or enemy contested sea areas. That lets a lot of the US air units reach Great Britain with a lay over in Greenland and/or Iceland.

The rule also lets some of the US extended range bombers fly at 6 times their printed range and reach Honolulu - as they did historically.

Use the Air Distance calculator to find the distance between two hexes.

And yes, if you can reach any hex in a sea area, then the air unit can fly to the zero section box (Naval Air Movement phase). Then it can possibly return to base (to a new base such as Honolulu) during either another Naval Air phase or it Return to Base phase.



paulderynck -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/21/2016 6:42:15 AM)

From the West coast to the Mendocino sea area is 16 sea dots. From the West Coast to Honolulu is 45 sea dots.

So a plane would need to have a range of more than 14 and fly a rebase mission that allows it to go triple, in order to rebase directly from say San Francisco to Honolulu.

A plane with a range of 16 could fly a naval air mission to the zero box of Mendocino and then return to base at Honolulu, but then it's been used for the turn.



Joseignacio -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/21/2016 8:26:10 AM)

You have been correctly answered. If you realize, it's totally correct that "short range aircraft" cannot reach another sea. [:D]

Also, there is the extended rebase rule (that is generally agreed).

In some cases, however, it can be a bit of nightmare: think of sending your American bombers (those not with extended range) through Greenland or Iceland, and ship almost all of the fighters to Europe. Makes me crazy. Sometimes people make something very useful but anti historical, like declaring war to Portugal, just to invade Azores and have a base there both for rebases and sea patrol against U-boats.



Courtenay -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/21/2016 4:44:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

You have been correctly answered. If you realize, it's totally correct that "short range aircraft" cannot reach another sea. [:D]

Also, there is the extended rebase rule (that is generally agreed).

In some cases, however, it can be a bit of nightmare: think of sending your American bombers (those not with extended range) through Greenland or Iceland, and ship almost all of the fighters to Europe. Makes me crazy. Sometimes people make something very useful but anti historical, like declaring war to Portugal, just to invade Azores and have a base there both for rebases and sea patrol against U-boats.

During the war, over nine thousand aircraft were flown from America to Britain through either Greenland or Iceland.

Historically the Allies convinced Portugal to let them use the Azores. In MWiF, this is not possible, as the game does not have detailed diplomatic rules. So if the Allies want the Azores, and are willing to pay the price of DOWing Portugal, let them.



Joseignacio -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/21/2016 6:36:54 PM)

Yes, what I said was anti historical was the DoW on Portugal, which would have been difficult to explain to USA public, being a real neutral, not like Spain, for example.



quiritus -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/23/2016 7:26:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Yes, what I said was anti historical was the DoW on Portugal, which would have been difficult to explain to USA public, being a real neutral, not like Spain, for example.

not so anti historical: in fact US was prepared to occupy Azores with marines in june 1940, war plan gray: approved on 29 may 1941, immediately after releving UK garrison from iceland, even if not-belligerant. the operation was deleted immediately after a intelligence report about Barbarossa, in mid june . a second plan Operation Alacrity, was approved in August 1941 but deleted with Pearl Harbour.

And, in december 1941 US and Australian units occupy est Timor, a portughese colony, without DOW. a portoguese expedition force was in travel to "free" Timor, recalled for Japanese occuparion.




Joseignacio -> RE: Sea area movement for USA (6/23/2016 9:14:06 AM)

[X(] RealPolitik



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