Operation Opera (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Mods and Scenarios



Message

aheadflank -> Operation Opera (7/7/2016 12:04:00 AM)

I'm currently working on Operation Opera recreation scenario.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera
But I've got stuck, because of a bingo fuel issue.
I'm trying to add fuel drop tanks to my aircraft, but that doesn't modify the flight range.
I would greatly appreciate, if anyone suggests me a solution.



magi -> RE: Operation Opera (7/8/2016 3:03:41 AM)

set up support tanker tracks for that side....



peterc100248 -> RE: Operation Opera (7/8/2016 4:33:19 PM)

I have done a lot of testing on long-range strikes using the fine "Wooden Leg" scenario. There are a couple of things to consider.

1. You could use the non-period correct F-16I Sufa model F-16s with the Mk84 dumb bomb loadout. According to several authoritative sources, GlobalSecurity.org for one, the F-16I (which is a variant built only for the Israelis) with the conformal fuel tanks and two 370 gal drop tanks is able to reach unrefueled "any capital in the Middle East." Other sources say it has the same range as the F-15I. The exact range is classified.

2. Raid information from Opera states the new (at the time) F-16s loaded with 2 Mk84s, 2 Sidewinders, and 2 370 gal drop tanks, "crossed the Gulf of Aquaba, overflew Saudi Arabia, used min altitude tactics on ingress to Iraq, delivered the weapons from around 10K ft, and returned at high altitude. The empty drop tanks were jettisoned over Saudi territory." Based on those facts, the database for period-correct F-16 aircraft is off by a good percentage. It is probably semi-correct for F-16A and B models, but beginning with the C, with the up-rated engine, appears to me to be off. Even so, Opera aircraft were A models with drop tanks and conducted the raid unrefueled.

Since we don't have access to classified data, and most of what we do have is just speculation about weapons and platforms based on the internet, my opinion is use whatever aircraft from whatever period you must to allow faithful recreation of the facts of the event. If a purist insists on only having period-correct platforms, then they must be willing to accept the inability of some of those platforms to perform as the real world events actually played out.

A note: Nothing personal about anyone involved in the development of CMANO. This limitation I speak of comes from not having access to real-world data that is classified.
Pete

Edit: BTW here is a map of the flight plan for Opera. Don't try this at home! :)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Osirak.html





mikmykWS -> RE: Operation Opera (7/8/2016 4:42:55 PM)

I don't view global security as a great source these days.

Thanks

Mike



peterc100248 -> RE: Operation Opera (7/8/2016 5:34:02 PM)

Mike

I agree. However, they are much closer to reality. As the crow flies, the distance from Etzion AB to the reactor site is in excess of 500 nm. The database lists F-16s of the day with the 3 drop tank configuration and 2 Mk84s as having a combat radius of only 340 nm.

As I indicated, according to whomever/wherever we got the database range figures for Israeli F-16s, the raid would have ended with all the attacking aircraft down in the desert. In reality, the raid happened. It was a mission of at least 1000 nm with the indicated loadout. Where the facts of history diverge from artificial reality, I choose to believe the facts. Whoever provides data that most closely fits the facts is who we should be listening to. My opinion anyway.



mikmykWS -> RE: Operation Opera (7/8/2016 6:26:25 PM)

Great. Can you show us a source beyond global security?

Israeli's could have refueled them in or over a country that doesn't want that known as well. Common occurrence of the era. Read abit into Iranian AF histories by Tom Cooper and you'll see examples of it. This is not to say it happened but the option was there.

Thanks!

Mike



peterc100248 -> RE: Operation Opera (7/8/2016 9:28:21 PM)

aheadflank....Sorry. I misled you. Even the F-16I Sufa cannot reach the reactor location from Etzion AB. Here is my little test bed scenario. It is really simple so that you can experiment with different packages without a lot of hassle. I didn't have time to run different loadouts. You can see what I chose and maybe experiment from there.

Edit: BTW I didn't bother using the Cold War database because the IAF F-16s are all in DB3000 and I didn't want to go through the hassle of rebuilding Wooden Leg with the Cold War stuff just to get Etzion AB. And you will notice I put in a 2-4000 meter runway Single Unit Airbase. The runway at Etzion was described as rather shorter than needed for tanker aircraft. The AB is closed and now I believe the airport has been closed with the opening of a new commercial airport there.

Mike...No I don't have any authoritative source. The IAF website gives no range figures at all. The exact range of the F-16I is reported to be classified. If that is true, I would imagine anyone who says they know exactly what that range is is blowing smoke. They might have refueled at Al-Jawf, but that would be a logistical and security nightmare. It would have been far easier to just run tankers over Saudi territory - although that would have risked Jordanian air defense radars picking up the easily tracked 707 tanker aircraft and spilling the beans.

By the same rule of authority though, we don't have a single source that alleges they ran a shuttle operation or tankers over Saudi airspace. The only "shady" aspect of the operation that I've found was the Iranians providing photo intel from an F-4 recon mission over the reactors to the Israelis. That would be rather easy to hide. I don't know how you'd hide a shuttle. Hundreds of folks would know Zionist warplanes had landed and refueled (2 times!) at Al-Jawf. The Jordanians (the King) tried to warn the Iraqis that the Israelis were coming, but his message didn't make it for some reason. All I know is the IAF is probably only second in the world, expertise-wise, to the USAF. They have a history of doing the impossible. We'll probably never know.



mikmykWS -> RE: Operation Opera (7/8/2016 10:56:00 PM)

Ok we'll check it out when we've got some time to dig through our unclassified sources.[:)]

Mike



peterc100248 -> RE: Operation Opera (7/9/2016 12:24:37 AM)

Mike...It isn't worth it. I have no problem just using a tanker track. Or a shuttle operation. I don't ever have any political fallout from landing IAF aircraft at Saudi bases. Everybody keeps secrets real well. [:)] I just thought the F-16I would make the hop. I'll make sure I used the longest range loadout.


aheadflank...I did some more testing. The F-16I can make the strike IF you choose a loadout with a 600 nm strike radius or greater. I re-ran it 6 or 7 times to make sure what I'm telling you is correct this time. [:@]

If you want to use period-correct A or B model F-16s, you'll have to create a tanker support mission or make a stop at Al-Jawf in Saudi Arabia. You can load that base using Editor -> Import/Export Units -> Load Units/Groups from File. Then go down to Saudi Arabia and find Al-Jawf airbase. Sounds like you'll be creating a pretty good historical scenario. Good luck.



aheadflank -> RE: Operation Opera (7/19/2016 7:03:36 PM)

I'm really sorry of leaving you with all that stuff, but I was on my vacation. Hope to go back to this scenario in the nearest future. I really, really appreciate the attention, you paid to it. This really helps!

P.S. I've finally completed final editing another one. I'm publishing it today



stolypin -> RE: Operation Opera (7/20/2016 3:49:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aheadflank

I'm really sorry of leaving you with all that stuff, but I was on my vacation. Hope to go back to this scenario in the nearest future. I really, really appreciate the attention, you paid to it. This really helps!

P.S. I've finally completed final editing another one. I'm publishing it today


Looking forward to it.



Nightwatch -> RE: Operation Opera (7/20/2016 6:21:54 PM)

Operation Opera is well documented to say the least. You can read up every detail on the mission.
There is no way (and reason) a refueling over Saudi Arabia wouldnt have leaked by now. Instead there are accounts of the pilots would acutally flew the mission stating they basically flew the mission without any reserves and the last F-16s landed dry.

So IMO the simple truth is, the F-16 has a larger combat radius than advertised, at least when flown in at certain speeds/heights.

As for the IAF, they flew a mission during the Suze Crisis deep into egypt with some two engined aircraft which shouldnt have been possible either. Turned out you could greatly increase the range by flying them with just one engine.
They are kinda crazy.




Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
1.640625