RE: Russian replacements... ~150k per turn? (Full Version)

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Icier -> RE: Russian replacements... ~150k per turn? (7/25/2016 1:24:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia


- Give the German player that meets certain conditions in the game the option to create more divisions, especially foreign divisions. (which seems realistic to me; if the war is going very well, and armaments is keeping up, it would seem not overly unhistoric to me that more foreign SS divisions can be created: I don't know if there has been good historical research done into the reasons why Europeans joined the Waffen SS, but it seems clear to me that it is much easier to join a 'winner'; that is basic human psychology.). You could even make off-map manpower centres (Western European cities) dynamic based on the current ratio in victory points


A bit of sanity + 1C

but lets just stir the pot a little more, there were 1.5 million Russians in the German army
& no they weren't just on the Western Front or fighting in Serbia & there were quite a few in the East.[sm=fighting0056.gif]






SigUp -> RE: Russian replacements... ~150k per turn? (7/25/2016 6:38:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia

Give the German player that meets certain conditions in the game the option to create more divisions, especially foreign divisions. (which seems realistic to me; if the war is going very well, and armaments is keeping up, it would seem not overly unhistoric to me that more foreign SS divisions can be created: I don't know if there has been good historical research done into the reasons why Europeans joined the Waffen SS, but it seems clear to me that it is much easier to join a 'winner'; that is basic human psychology.). You could even make off-map manpower centres (Western European cities) dynamic based on the current ratio in victory points

Of course research has been done in this regard. Foreigners who joined the Waffen SS were largely of two categories: a) so-called "Volksdeutsche", people of German descent living in other countries like the ones in Hungary or Rumania b) people with a lack of perspective. Recruitment, even on the high mark of the Third Reich, fell far short of the expectations of the Germans who had to resort to force on many occasions. There just was not a particular sentiment to fight for the Third Reich.



No idea -> RE: Russian replacements... ~150k per turn? (7/25/2016 2:46:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia

Give the German player that meets certain conditions in the game the option to create more divisions, especially foreign divisions. (which seems realistic to me; if the war is going very well, and armaments is keeping up, it would seem not overly unhistoric to me that more foreign SS divisions can be created: I don't know if there has been good historical research done into the reasons why Europeans joined the Waffen SS, but it seems clear to me that it is much easier to join a 'winner'; that is basic human psychology.). You could even make off-map manpower centres (Western European cities) dynamic based on the current ratio in victory points

Of course research has been done in this regard. Foreigners who joined the Waffen SS were largely of two categories: a) so-called "Volksdeutsche", people of German descent living in other countries like the ones in Hungary or Rumania b) people with a lack of perspective. Recruitment, even on the high mark of the Third Reich, fell far short of the expectations of the Germans who had to resort to force on many occasions. There just was not a particular sentiment to fight for the Third Reich.



Not much of a surprise there. After all, a good part of Europe had been conquered by Germany. Not many people want to fight for a country that has invaded yours. Only the most anti blosheviks would want that. If you add the nazi nonsense of aryan racial superiority it is no surprise that the only relevant, voluntary SS forces out of ethnic germans came from the scandinavian countries.



Aditia -> RE: Russian replacements... ~150k per turn? (7/25/2016 3:08:37 PM)

I was posting about the game, not trying to start a historic debate...



darbycmcd -> RE: Russian replacements... ~150k per turn? (7/25/2016 6:00:50 PM)

Hi Aditia! I think you make some good points. Let me first point out that the comment you made above is exactly what I was talking about as far as the difficulty in making a game that pleases two really different camps. When you can say you are talking about adding major events to a game and not regard history, which is of course a totally plausible design decision, it does show different understandings of what this game is or should be trying to do.

Also, with regard to the idea that some players have that German must win in the first two offensive seasons. This is true.... iff you think that 'winning' the game is defeating the SU. When I played the tabletop game Europa we called these people 'panzer pushers'. They like the fun ride through the slavic countryside, but they were not interested in the defensive portion of the war at all (which is actually a much larger portion). If a player sees 'winning' as a comparison with history, then the game is about when Berlin falls. Now in this case you have to demonstrate more skill in more situations, and the first 2 campaigns set up the conditions for the last 2.5 years, not determine victory. And really it is also a crap game if it is just one player attacks and then quits if he doesn't 'win'. You have to see that there is a strong narrative being built by some players that hinges on a very specific vision of what this game should be. Of course they can very legitimately claim the same thing, and so it goes....



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