"How not to be seen" as a submarine (Full Version)

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Rongor -> "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 5:45:33 AM)

Hi,
I have a sub right under the layer, camping there with speed zero. Still suddenly I have an enemy torpedo inbound. There were no indications of sensors in my vicinity before. Leaves me with two questions:

How did they pick me up with passive sonar when I am floating in water with cut engines?
In case they sensed me with active sonar, why wasn't there any indication of some emitting contact nearby? I guess my sub's passive sonar should be well able to sense incoming active sonar emissions before my reflections become strong enough to be noticed by the emitting enemy.



Marder -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 5:51:10 AM)

I think you have to post a savegame...



Rongor -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 5:53:22 AM)

I'd do so in case I would suspect some bug. Right now just asking for other peoples advice, assuming I have to learn a lot about sub warfare.



Luidzi -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 5:59:28 AM)

MAD can detect even a stationary submarine. Of course, save would be helpful, to check the opponent's ASW assets.



Rongor -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 6:14:21 AM)

Besides that I don't have a save of that situation, it wouldn't help for answering the thread title.

"How not to be seen" as a submarine?
I am looking for general advice for that topic. My described situation was an example, not a single situation to be questioned by me.

How do we avoid detection best, while conducting some patrol with a sub?

Passive sonar, active sonar and MAD being our enemies, how do we fool them effectively?



thewood1 -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 11:41:11 AM)

But you said you suspect a bug. It would have been good to see what was up?



Rory Noonan -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 11:43:06 AM)

It's heavily dependent on the capabilities of the submarine and any ASW assets. Distance is important, and depth factors into that. Particularly for nuc boats, and to a lesser extent for diesel boats, the sub still makes noise when sitting still. The reactor and other machinery count towards this, as do 'transients' like a dropped wrench (or 45 cents). A good passive set can pick up even a quiet boat given a close enough range.

Beyond that, it's advantageous to know your enemy: surface ships with VDS/towed arrays will be looking below the layer with their best sonar. In that case you will be better off above the layer, up against the (usually less capable) hull sonar.

As for active sonar, if you get close enough it will see you. Stay well away, and on the opposite side of the layer.

MAD is tricky. I've tested it, and the closer you are to the surface, the larger the detection zone is--so stay deep to hide from MAD equipped aircraft.

At the end of the day, it is also useful to realise that submarines are sometimes better used as ISR platforms. Sending a sub in against a strong surface group with adequate ASW assets is probably just going to lose you a sub. Using the same sub to detect, classify and track the same surface group and vector ofher resources for a combined attack is likely a much more effective solution.



tipsypo -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 11:52:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

But you said you suspect a bug. It would have been good to see what was up?


Actually the original post did not mention anything about bug. And his other post did not say he suspected a bug, rather just saying he would post a save game if he suspects a bug.



Rongor -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 12:18:57 PM)

Hey apache, thanks for the ISR comment, makes absolute sense, but so far it didn't come up in my mind.
Regarding MAD, I noticed a soviet Il-38 detecting my Sturgeon class SSN in a depth of 1k feet. That is a decent range. Real life values are hard to find in the internet, only thing I found was an approximate 500 meters slant range for a "typical" MAD device, I think it was at fas.org
I guess I underestimated the capabilities of MAD before, also taking into account that a modern MPA like the P-8 Poseidon wasn't equipped with MAD at all anymore.



thewood1 -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 1:13:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tipsypo


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

But you said you suspect a bug. It would have been good to see what was up?


Actually the original post did not mention anything about bug. And his other post did not say he suspected a bug, rather just saying he would post a save game if he suspects a bug.


I didn't say his original post...He stated he thought it was a bug. Did I say "in his original post"?



tipsypo -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 1:26:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

I'd do so in case I would suspect some bug.Right now just asking for other peoples advice, assuming I have to learn a lot about sub warfare.


No you didn't. He did not say believe it to be a bug either though. The above I read as he will post if he believes it to be a bug, but at moment does not believe so. And was just pointing that neither does the original post say anything about a bug. But calm down was no attack upon you.



Rory Noonan -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 1:49:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

Hey apache, thanks for the ISR comment, makes absolute sense, but so far it didn't come up in my mind.
Regarding MAD, I noticed a soviet Il-38 detecting my Sturgeon class SSN in a depth of 1k feet. That is a decent range. Real life values are hard to find in the internet, only thing I found was an approximate 500 meters slant range for a "typical" MAD device, I think it was at fas.org
I guess I underestimated the capabilities of MAD before, also taking into account that a modern MPA like the P-8 Poseidon wasn't equipped with MAD at all anymore.


That's pretty consistent with my observations. Thankfully, the deeper you are the closer they have to be to get a MAD contact. You also have the potential to be detected by MAD and avoid classification/tracking by other means, giving you the chance to slip away (enemy ROE permitting).

As a human player, MAD is the business. Getting a MAD hit means you've got the exact location of a probable sub (especially if it moves).

I can only imagine the P-8's lack of a MAD is due to some amazing new sonobouy or other sensor. Or it could be the likely poor performance of having a 737 type aircraft flying slowly at <1000ft for extended periods. I do remember that India (I think) has initiated on MADs for their ordered P-8s.



mikmykWS -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 2:15:44 PM)

Save game would tell the story. Ping us if any real comes out of this. We'll gladly help.

Mike



wild_Willie2 -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 2:22:54 PM)

As far as I have heard there where two mayor considerations why the USN P8's do not have a MAD capability:

The range of these MAD sensors was so limited v. the capability of modern subs to dive to great depths, that the USN no longer considers them a cost effective sensor. Also, the P8 was designed to perform ASW work from 30K feet, so at its operating altitude MAD would be useless anyway. There are however reports of an MAD equipped drone being especially developed by BAE for P8 use..




thewood1 -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 3:45:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tipsypo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

I'd do so in case I would suspect some bug.Right now just asking for other peoples advice, assuming I have to learn a lot about sub warfare.


No you didn't. He did not say believe it to be a bug either though. The above I read as he will post if he believes it to be a bug, but at moment does not believe so. And was just pointing that neither does the original post say anything about a bug. But calm down was no attack upon you.


Damn...there goes my righteous rage.



KungPao -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 4:51:00 PM)

How is the weather on the ocean surface? The heavy rain on the surface will make your sonar very difficult to pickup surface contact, while the surface ship's VDS can locate you without any problem.

But I guess you are playing NI Scenario 4 "Barents Sea Boomers" right? those MAD Il-38 are nasty



Luidzi -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/8/2016 6:27:44 PM)

Detection range of MAD is much lower (I think about half) if the submarine has non-magnetic hull. Theoretically, a submarine could avoid an aircraft at a standard patrol height (305m) if it can dive as deep as possible (didn't check this myself).
Also, don't forget about other possibilities of detection - radar and IR. Both can be used against submarine at periscope depth. While IR is quite crap (not too many systems are capable of periscope search and those that can have maximum practical detection range about 5nm), a good radar (like Mushroom) can detect a periscope at dozen nm or more.



Rongor -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/9/2016 1:28:09 PM)


quote:


But I guess you are playing NI Scenario 4 "Barents Sea Boomers" right? those MAD Il-38 are nasty

Exactly!

Right now I am constantly switching depth, but I feel quite insecure about what I am doing.

My thoughts-
As deep as possible keeps me most distant from any surface/air sensor. Yet I have the Il-38 sensing me in 1000 ft depth. Also I assume that staying close at the sea floor may reduce the possible cone of upgoing reflections. On the other hand getting near the sea floor increases the intensity of my emissions hitting the reflecting surfaces on the floor.
Proceeding right under the layer should give me the greatest range for my passive sonar regarding submerged threads also below the layer. Yet I also spread my own emissions the most (I guess) under the layer, while keeping some cover vs. sensors above the layer.
Right above the layer lets me listen what is going on at the surface. OTOH I makes myself vulnerable to sensors above the layer.
Sometimes I intentionally climb to periscope depth, to enable my crew noticing surface vessels and aircraft along the horizon which I then can avoid to not proceed into their possible ASW traps.



wild_Willie2 -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/9/2016 2:37:00 PM)

Surfacing under Barents Sea Boomers is more or less suicide as there is a big chance that your scope will be spotted by radar....
In this scenario you can only creep along inside the layer until you are clear of the north coast of Norway and hope for the best.



Lukeb -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/10/2016 8:39:23 AM)

I had a pretty successful run recently. 1 SSBN with a conventional torpedo and 2 destroyers taken out with a nuke torpedo, both my subs survive. Then the scenario ended with a day left for some reason, but I pressed on afterwards and got another sub kill.

My tactics were to not travel above 10knots at any point whilst moving to the datum refs. While travelling there I would periodically switch to creep speed and spend a few minutes just above and just below the layers to listen, then crank back up to 10 knots.

On discovering a sub I immediately stop my discovering sub and then move my other one to a position where the unknown sub will pass by, where I then get in and follow in the baffles. Eventually the unknown SSBN is identified as hostile, so then I attack.

That's pretty much it. My main tactics was to listen to as big an area as possible by efficient search patterns and depth management, whilst keeping my subs in mutual support of each other and obviously keeping undiscovered.



KungPao -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/10/2016 6:26:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

Exactly!

Right now I am constantly switching depth, but I feel quite insecure about what I am doing.

My thoughts-
As deep as possible keeps me most distant from any surface/air sensor. Yet I have the Il-38 sensing me in 1000 ft depth. Also I assume that staying close at the sea floor may reduce the possible cone of upgoing reflections. On the other hand getting near the sea floor increases the intensity of my emissions hitting the reflecting surfaces on the floor.
Proceeding right under the layer should give me the greatest range for my passive sonar regarding submerged threads also below the layer. Yet I also spread my own emissions the most (I guess) under the layer, while keeping some cover vs. sensors above the layer.
Right above the layer lets me listen what is going on at the surface. OTOH I makes myself vulnerable to sensors above the layer.
Sometimes I intentionally climb to periscope depth, to enable my crew noticing surface vessels and aircraft along the horizon which I then can avoid to not proceed into their possible ASW traps.

My thought is in this scenario you should keep at as deep as possible, never go above layer

I tried this scenario 5 times (plus dozen S/L), it was very frustrating experience at the beginning , but I achieved victory in last two games, sink both Soviet SSBN.

In the first try my subs are moving above the layer, both Tunny and Whale were quickly sunk. Then I took other people's advise and make both my subs travel in layer, but I still receive the "torp in water, 0nm!" message.

Here are my thoughts,
1, in this scenario the layer is too shallow and too thin. If my memory is correct, it is -30m~-80m. The thin layer will not provide enough protection. in other scenario with thick layer, the layer will protect the sub from sonobuoy above and under layer . But in this scenario sub in layer will be detected by sonobuoy both above AND under layer.
2, Mother nature is not friendly to you , it is heavy rain on the Ocean surface. So forget those soviet ships, you will have a hard time to pickup surface contact. On the other hand, the soviet ships are blind too, they don't have VDS/towed arrays. If you were chased by an AT-14, that means ASW planes/Helo did find you.
3, Don't rush into the storm, plan your approaching carefully.
4, have faith in Royal Navy, they will create distraction on soviet ASW force, sometimes they can even create a miracle.

in my 4th and 5th game, I choose to keep at as deep as possible, and it works, although you might still lose sub . in the last game I even achieved the victory without S/L.





Lukeb -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/11/2016 4:06:52 PM)

The enemy subs do travel above the layer as well as just under and max depth. I followed one sub for hours that would alternate above and below the layer. You do risk missing contacts on the other side of the layer if you don't check.

It may increase the risk of discovery by periodically going above layer, but I actually think in this scenario it might be to your advantage defensively to alternate between the two. It is heavy rain on the surface which helps hide your signature from surface listeners, as well as moderately rough sea which should (should as in, my theorising [;)]) hinder shallow depth sonar buoys from picking you up as well as they should. This means although the shallows are still dangerous (especially with MAD equipped aircraft above you don't forget) they are safer than they normally would be. Also, my theory is by alternating between above and below will disrupt/break any positive sonar contact the enemy has of you..... it certainly does when the enemy subs did it during my observations. So if you plan your search patterns to have change of depths, speed and directions you should be able to incorporate these to be of benefit to your searching and defence.

The beauty (depending on your enjoyment) of sub warfare I find is that you don't really ever know how well your tactics are working until you succeed or die. It's a test of discipline, patience and your ability to come up with procedures to give you the best chance of success.

(All of the above could be completely wrong and I may just be getting very lucky. Buuuuut, it definitely does seem like I am getting luckier with each new adaption I make to my tactics.)



Rhygin00 -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/12/2016 12:12:54 AM)

To evade sonar, you basically have to keep your distance and keep "inside the layer". I write that in quotation marks because to me it looks that in all resources I find online that describe sonar operation the real thermal layer is actually the top level of the layer in Command. This is the level where the gradient of the speed of sound flips. "Inside the layer" is being in the shadow zone, where the sonar waves are bent away from you (or away from an enemy receiver) if you are beyond a certain distance. In reality this is actually under the layer.

You don't want to go "below the layer" because that is where the deep sound channel is defined to be in Command. This lower level is not talked about in the sources, it's probably where the speed gradient bends back again. This is the depth where the sound is held inside a sound wave guide over large distances. For instance, try to take a very loud Chinese XIA SSBN going in the deep sound channel below the layer and try to detect it with a SURTASS ship in deep water. It's detectable at 200 nautical miles with the outermost conversion zone!




Sardaukar -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/12/2016 10:17:43 AM)

If layer is not thick enough, it is useless to run inside layer...you'd be vulnerable from both above and below, since thickness of layer is not enough to deflect sound well-enough. If I understand correctly, that is the case in this scenario. In that case, old movie name "Run Deep, Run Silent" is a good idea. One can periodically pop up over the layer to get idea of surface situation, but generally I'd stay as deep as possible in this scenario for few reasons. When deep:

- you are less vulnerable to MAD detection
- when above layer, you are increasingly vulnerable to ship hull sonars and sonoboyos
- SSBNs are generally always deep



Rory Noonan -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/12/2016 11:06:27 AM)

I think speed is more important than depth, but still agree that deeper is better. Chugging along at 10 kts at periscope depth in anything noisier than a Virginia or Seawolf is going to get you got pretty quickly.

I generally stay below the layer and < 5 kts. Anything over 5 kts is purely for transiting, is only done when the area is clear, and is done as deep as possible.

Not sure about SSBNs always being deep, the ones I've caught in Barents Sea Boomers were shallow.

As for searching, I tend to use sprint & drift; cover ~80% of sensor range deep at cruise, slow to 2-3 kts, check each side of the layer + baffles for 5 mins, then another sprint.



Sardaukar -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/12/2016 11:41:26 AM)

One thing also about being deep is that you have bit more time to speed up if attacked by torpedo. Sometimes it helps for evasion, but generally, if detected, you are in trouble.



Rongor -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/12/2016 2:54:54 PM)

Thanks for all your thoughts guys.

Also tried to maintain in the layer, but as KungPao pointed out, it seems too thin to be of any help. Right now I am experimenting with different (rather exotic) ingress angles, keeping as deep as possible and at or below 5 knots of speed. After all the Barents Sea unfortunately is a quite shallow theater offering not that much depth to hide.



solops -> RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine (8/12/2016 3:14:48 PM)

"How not to be seen" as a submarine....so simple.

Turn down the Metallica.
Drive a diesel.
Go slow.
Go deep.


....i.e. think like one of us retired, married people.



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