Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (Full Version)

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rbilheimer -> Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (8/31/2016 8:34:51 PM)

Hello again,

A few more newb questions concerning amphib invasions and behavior of transports and LCU's...

I have been playing the Coral Seal scenario to learn the game system. It's helping a lot, but things crop up that baffle me.

1. In a recent game, I moved the invasion amphib TF with the on-board LCU's directly to Port Moresby. After the troops fully disembarked, I couldn't get the transports to leave the area. I gave them repeated orders to "get out of Dodge" but they just stayed put only to be chewd up by air attacks and shore gunnery. What am I missing? Is it that they have to fully unload any loaded supplies before you can give them an exit order?

2. In a subsequent game, I tried a different strategy. Heretofore I had always sent the invasion TF directly to Port Moresby. This time I invaded and took Buna. Again, as above, the invasion transports would not budge when I tried to send them back to Rabaul. AND the LCU's also wouldn't move. After they took Buna, I gave them orders to march toward Port Moresby to surprise the garrison with a land-side attack. But, the LCU's would never move. I gave them move orders, but they just sat there. What gives?

One other random item. What does it mean when a little "E" shows up on the unit icon that shows up on the tactical map? I think I saw it on ship icons and on LCU's. Does it have someting to do with damaged units splitting off?

Thanks!



witpqs -> RE: Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (8/31/2016 8:45:03 PM)

If you know how to take a screen pic, a pic of the TF screen after you gave them "get out of Dodge" orders might really help.

One guess is that they were still unloading supplies. The will not leave until unloading finishes. You can just "Cancel" unloading (look for the button nearby) to overcome that.



jwolf -> RE: Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (8/31/2016 9:00:35 PM)

The E on a TF in the tactical map means it is an escort TF, usually with one or more really badly damaged ships plus an escort if available.

How do you know your LCUs weren't moving? Remember it will take many days to move one hex through the New Guinea jungle. Given that the Coral Sea scenario lasts only 10 days ... that means a land movement strategy is not going to win.

You can't disband a TF with troops still aboard, but you can stop unloading in order to move away. Frustratingly, just ordering them to move won't be enough as they will attempt to finish unloading first unless you cancel. Similarly for supplies although in that case you can disband the fleet if you want (as long as you own the base).



rbilheimer -> RE: Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (8/31/2016 10:17:04 PM)

Ok, thanks! I figured that the unloading had to finish before they could move away. I didn't realize you could cancel it. This is helpful. And the guidance on moving through the jungle, yes, of course. That's logical. I didn't think that through. I was just trying to think of a creative way of taking Port Moresby. It's seemingly impossible given the time constraints of the scenario.



HansBolter -> RE: Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (8/31/2016 10:22:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

If you know how to take a screen pic, a pic of the TF screen after you gave them "get out of Dodge" orders might really help.

One guess is that they were still unloading supplies. The will not leave until unloading finishes. You can just "Cancel" unloading (look for the button nearby) to overcome that.



To clarify a little, if you just cancel the unloading they may start unloading again.

After canceling the unloading, set them to Do Not Unload.

Actually just toggling the Do Not Unload setting will also cancel any current unloading.



BBfanboy -> RE: Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (9/1/2016 2:20:44 AM)

Check the manual for rates of movement in various types of terrain - the unit type makes a difference. In Jungle and especially Jungle/Rough movement will be very slow and your troops will suffer fatigue up to about 30, disruption up to about 12. Some of this is malaria effects. You can only reduce this by putting your troops in rest or reserve mode (but do not cancel the destination set - they will continue to move in those modes, but more slowly).

IIRC the barely visible Kokoda track between Buna and Port Moresby acts like a dirt road - units can cover up to 15 miles a day on it. This is not historic and does not fit the terrain type, but players were reporting this kind of movement rate.



HansBolter -> RE: Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (9/1/2016 11:55:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Check the manual for rates of movement in various types of terrain - the unit type makes a difference. In Jungle and especially Jungle/Rough movement will be very slow and your troops will suffer fatigue up to about 30, disruption up to about 12. Some of this is malaria effects. You can only reduce this by putting your troops in rest or reserve mode (but do not cancel the destination set - they will continue to move in those modes, but more slowly).

IIRC the barely visible Kokoda track between Buna and Port Moresby acts like a dirt road - units can cover up to 15 miles a day on it. This is not historic and does not fit the terrain type, but players were reporting this kind of movement rate.



In Uncommon Valor Kokoda is a trail, but WITP doesn't have trails.

UV had regular roads and trails, but not highways.

WITP has highways and regular roads, but no trails.

There was also a far heavier supply attrition across terrain without roads in UV.

It was almost impossible to supply a land move from PM to Wau in UV.



BBfanboy -> RE: Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (9/1/2016 2:20:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Check the manual for rates of movement in various types of terrain - the unit type makes a difference. In Jungle and especially Jungle/Rough movement will be very slow and your troops will suffer fatigue up to about 30, disruption up to about 12. Some of this is malaria effects. You can only reduce this by putting your troops in rest or reserve mode (but do not cancel the destination set - they will continue to move in those modes, but more slowly).

IIRC the barely visible Kokoda track between Buna and Port Moresby acts like a dirt road - units can cover up to 15 miles a day on it. This is not historic and does not fit the terrain type, but players were reporting this kind of movement rate.



In Uncommon Valor Kokoda is a trail, but WITP doesn't have trails.

UV had regular roads and trails, but not highways.

WITP has highways and regular roads, but no trails.

There was also a far heavier supply attrition across terrain without roads in UV.

It was almost impossible to supply a land move from PM to Wau in UV.

??? Why are you bringing up UV Hans? Did you mean AE?

I realize there are no "trails" in the game, but players were reporting that their LCUs were making the trip between PM and Buna (both ways) far faster than should have been possible in Jungle/Rough terrain. Something is happening where the historic Kokoda Track was.

I remember some players wanting to have the worm-hole fixed, while others said leave it alone. I don't know if subsequent updates and patches changed it.



US87891 -> RE: Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (9/1/2016 3:09:53 PM)

The DBB series addressed some of that with the May 2014 release. It fakes a trail by using the “track” code which was originally intended to represent a railroad right-of-way. It’s probably better than what was really there but it is substantially worse than a secondary road.

There is a ‘track’ leaving Buna headed towards Kokoda. There is a ‘track’ leaving PM headed towards Kokoda. The Kokoda hex is empty of any road or track type. We also changed the Kokoda hex terrain from jungle+rough to jungle+mountain. It is a real horror show to get through.

It was too much of a good thing and in subsequent scenarios we extended the Buna ‘track’ to the right half of the Kokoda hex. The ‘track’ therefore goes from Buna to Kokoda center, but the left half of the Kokoda hex remains devoid of anything until one reaches the ‘track-head’ at the boundary of the PM hex. It feels a touch smoother/better, but troop and supply movement between Buna and PM remains quite problematic due to the imposing half-hex of jungle filled mountains.

[ed] AndyMac used our data files for his updated scenarios. I do not know if he did an extended map version of those but if so he would have used our 2014 pwhexe.

Matt



BBfanboy -> RE: Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (9/1/2016 11:37:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: US87891

The DBB series addressed some of that with the May 2014 release. It fakes a trail by using the “track” code which was originally intended to represent a railroad right-of-way. It’s probably better than what was really there but it is substantially worse than a secondary road.

There is a ‘track’ leaving Buna headed towards Kokoda. There is a ‘track’ leaving PM headed towards Kokoda. The Kokoda hex is empty of any road or track type. We also changed the Kokoda hex terrain from jungle+rough to jungle+mountain. It is a real horror show to get through.

It was too much of a good thing and in subsequent scenarios we extended the Buna ‘track’ to the right half of the Kokoda hex. The ‘track’ therefore goes from Buna to Kokoda center, but the left half of the Kokoda hex remains devoid of anything until one reaches the ‘track-head’ at the boundary of the PM hex. It feels a touch smoother/better, but troop and supply movement between Buna and PM remains quite problematic due to the imposing half-hex of jungle filled mountains.

[ed] AndyMac used our data files for his updated scenarios. I do not know if he did an extended map version of those but if so he would have used our 2014 pwhexe.

Matt


Perfect - that explains my (obsolete) understanding of the way it used to work and the way it works now. Sounds like a great solution to make a semblance of that bloody awful trail! I saw videos of the Aussies climbing a 45º slope, slipping in the greasy muck and sliding down the mountainside. There were ropes strung to help them but it must have been exhausting to climb with your handgrip and arm pulls while carrying a full pack. Tough soldiers those! [sm=bow.gif]



HansBolter -> RE: Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (9/2/2016 11:59:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Check the manual for rates of movement in various types of terrain - the unit type makes a difference. In Jungle and especially Jungle/Rough movement will be very slow and your troops will suffer fatigue up to about 30, disruption up to about 12. Some of this is malaria effects. You can only reduce this by putting your troops in rest or reserve mode (but do not cancel the destination set - they will continue to move in those modes, but more slowly).

IIRC the barely visible Kokoda track between Buna and Port Moresby acts like a dirt road - units can cover up to 15 miles a day on it. This is not historic and does not fit the terrain type, but players were reporting this kind of movement rate.



In Uncommon Valor Kokoda is a trail, but WITP doesn't have trails.

UV had regular roads and trails, but not highways.

WITP has highways and regular roads, but no trails.

There was also a far heavier supply attrition across terrain without roads in UV.

It was almost impossible to supply a land move from PM to Wau in UV.

??? Why are you bringing up UV Hans? Did you mean AE?

I realize there are no "trails" in the game, but players were reporting that their LCUs were making the trip between PM and Buna (both ways) far faster than should have been possible in Jungle/Rough terrain. Something is happening where the historic Kokoda Track was.

I remember some players wanting to have the worm-hole fixed, while others said leave it alone. I don't know if subsequent updates and patches changed it.



I meant UV. Was just making a comparison while wondering why trails were dropped when WITP was made.

Given that AE is closer to the scale of UV than it is to the scale of WITP I would have thought it important to retain trails while adding highways instead of dropping trails to add highways when the game was redesigned to a smaller scale.

The scale of UV is 30 nautical miles per hex.

The scale of WITP is 60 nautical miles per hex.

The scale of AE is 40 nautical miles per hex.



BBfanboy -> RE: Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (9/2/2016 2:43:08 PM)

Thanks for filling in the blanks Hans. I have never played or seen UV, so I did not get the reference.



rustysi -> RE: Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (9/2/2016 11:30:56 PM)

Could it be that trails were dropped because they were already factored into new movement rates for the scale of AE?



Alfred -> RE: Behavior of Amphib TF's and LCU's (9/28/2016 3:59:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Could it be that trails were dropped because they were already factored into new movement rates for the scale of AE?


Correct.

Alfred



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