RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (Full Version)

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DrRansom -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (10/24/2016 6:25:21 PM)

Off the top of my head, a principle railgun stat will be the number of shots per capacitor recharge. From what I have seen, it looks like a railgun will be able to do a burst fire-mission, before needing time to recharge capacitors.

The user will select energy per shot and that determines the number of shots per fire mission.

That would almost require modeling the generic power demand of a warship. That will be a more difficult modeling task, but probably needed for more advanced DEW modeling?




ultradave -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (10/24/2016 8:10:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: StellarRat


quote:

ORIGINAL: apache85

Getting a bit OT but what kind of range would we expect a rail gun to engage at?

I've read up to 100 miles. They will have seeker rounds, but are such high velocity that no explosive is used. Additionally, supposedly, they can target incoming missiles and AC at shorter ranges.


We are looking at this soon.If you guys can find some stats somewhere we'll try and get them in there.

Mike


Drool

Oh, uh, pardon me. :-)




StellarRat -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (10/24/2016 9:02:32 PM)

I'm afraid my knowledge is limited to what's been on the web and seems reasonable. If I knew a lot I'd probably be in trouble! :-)

The Wikipedia has some good general information including the mathematical formulas for some of the basics (in case you want to build one in your garage.) Search for "railgun". There is a section on US Navy tests, etc..

I did read that rounds will probably achieve 8300 feet per second at the muzzle and 64 mega joules of muzzle energy (for comparison a 16" shell from old New Jersey class BB has about 360 mega joules and the Harpoon inflicts 3000 mega joules.) The rounds are only $25K vs. millions for a missile. They'll probably have a lot more ammo was well since they are tiny compared to missiles.

I'm speculating that it will obviously be VERY difficult to defend against a projectile going over 5000 mph (maybe lasers??), so even though the damage is much less, the chance to hit is going to be much higher. Probably the only thing the target can do is try to jam the guidance or target acquisition systems.

I also know from other reading that older ships don't have the power generating capacity to use these next generation weapons (railguns and lasers.) The new designs are putting massive power generation capabilities into the requirements. So, it seems we're entering the world of Star Trek, where the phase, "I canna Captain. We don't have the power!" is literally becoming a reality.




AlphaSierra -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/10/2017 5:30:01 PM)

Agreed on Air Launched ASM's

People need to remember the Harpoon was air launched years before a surface launch happened.

Give me a slippery S3 with a couple of Harpoons and watch a Kirov go under

IMO one of the deadliest combos out there today is the P-8 with some slammers it just not fair.





Wiz33 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/11/2017 4:24:18 AM)

Well, I always felt that the Harpoon missile have been underrated since Harpoon the game (but that's ok since you get unlimited reloads for your carrier planes). If you look at the soviet ship built toward the end of the cold war era like the Kirov, Sovremenny, Udaloy and Slava and see how many CIWS and short range SAM they carry. You'll see that they consider the Harpoon a Huge threat. The thing is, there are sea skimmers and then there are seas skimmers. Anything that flys between 5-50 meter above sea level is considered a sea skimmer and but the lower they fly the harder it is to intercept and the harpoon is probably the lowest flying of all the sea skimmers. It doesn't help that none of the Soviet heavy SAM can even engage that low (SA-N-6 have a hard low ceiling of 10 meters) SA-N-7 can probably engage but at a highly degraded hit probability. Which leave them with basically Gun or light missile based CIWS like the AK-630 and SA-N-4/9. Basically, you get under 2 minutes of reaction time from when the missile pop over the radar horizon (depending on sea state). I have a friend that used to fly B-52Gs out of Loring at the time and their estimate is that a flight of 4 Gs with 12 Harpoons each or 6 Gs with 8 each (depending on range) will achieve a mission kill on any soviet SAG including one with a Kirov with or without HARM support.




Dimitris -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/11/2017 5:09:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33
Well, I always felt that the Harpoon missile have been underrated since Harpoon the game (but that's ok since you get unlimited reloads for your carrier planes). If you look at the soviet ship built toward the end of the cold war era like the Kirov, Sovremenny, Udaloy and Slava and see how many CIWS and short range SAM they carry. You'll see that they consider the Harpoon a Huge threat. The thing is, there are sea skimmers and then there are seas skimmers. Anything that flys between 5-50 meter above sea level is considered a sea skimmer and but the lower they fly the harder it is to intercept and the harpoon is probably the lowest flying of all the sea skimmers. It doesn't help that none of the Soviet heavy SAM can even engage that low (SA-N-6 have a hard low ceiling of 10 meters) SA-N-7 can probably engage but at a highly degraded hit probability. Which leave them with basically Gun or light missile based CIWS like the AK-630 and SA-N-4/9. Basically, you get under 2 minutes of reaction time from when the missile pop over the radar horizon (depending on sea state). I have a friend that used to fly B-52Gs out of Loring at the time and their estimate is that a flight of 4 Gs with 12 Harpoons each or 6 Gs with 8 each (depending on range) will achieve a mission kill on any soviet SAG including one with a Kirov with or without HARM support.


If you think we are modelling anything specific wrong, show us. Thanks.




Wiz33 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/11/2017 9:06:43 PM)

One thing that have never been validated is that HARM can be intercepted by a SAM. The thing is the size of an AMRAAM although it flys are 1/2 the speed. but just try to imagine hitting an early AIM-7 with a missile. When I asked if a HARM can be intercepted. My friends in the Air Force just laugh in my face.




temkc5 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/11/2017 9:54:52 PM)

This happened in one of the world wars so....
it's possible but maybe we should turn up the randomness of SAM's




Wiz33 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/11/2017 9:59:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33
Well, I always felt that the Harpoon missile have been underrated since Harpoon the game (but that's ok since you get unlimited reloads for your carrier planes). If you look at the soviet ship built toward the end of the cold war era like the Kirov, Sovremenny, Udaloy and Slava and see how many CIWS and short range SAM they carry. You'll see that they consider the Harpoon a Huge threat. The thing is, there are sea skimmers and then there are seas skimmers. Anything that flys between 5-50 meter above sea level is considered a sea skimmer and but the lower they fly the harder it is to intercept and the harpoon is probably the lowest flying of all the sea skimmers. It doesn't help that none of the Soviet heavy SAM can even engage that low (SA-N-6 have a hard low ceiling of 10 meters) SA-N-7 can probably engage but at a highly degraded hit probability. Which leave them with basically Gun or light missile based CIWS like the AK-630 and SA-N-4/9. Basically, you get under 2 minutes of reaction time from when the missile pop over the radar horizon (depending on sea state). I have a friend that used to fly B-52Gs out of Loring at the time and their estimate is that a flight of 4 Gs with 12 Harpoons each or 6 Gs with 8 each (depending on range) will achieve a mission kill on any soviet SAG including one with a Kirov with or without HARM support.


If you think we are modelling anything specific wrong, show us. Thanks.


While I used to have an hand in a lot of Naval sims from the 80s to 90s. SSI, EA, 360, Sim Can. I have not really been active in the community since the genre died (soon after EA dropped the the Jane's line). Although I still picked up pretty much all the modern military sims and try to at least keep an casual eye all all the new platforms since then. If the scenario that the OP was playing happens in 92 as someone thought. Then there is something wrong.

There are also quite a few things that wasn't taken into accounts in sims of that era. The main thing is the man in the loop time. Providing that the launch platform was not detected and the first sign of an attack is when the missiles pop over the radar horizon. How much time passes before the first radar contact to when the defensive fire begins. In most sims, it's almost instant but what happens in real life? Also unknown (since it's mostly classified) is the kind of terminal evasive maneuver and their effectiveness.

All I can say is that from non-classified conversation with active and retire service personnel back then. They believe that the Harpoon is highly effective in penetrating the defensive parameter of a typical Soviet SAG with the number I described. I was also told that they estimated the number of hits to achieve a mission kill is about 4 on a Kirov, Kiev, 2 on any cruiser size and 1 on any destroyer size target. The target may still be afloat but won't be combat effective until it reach port and get repaired.




Dimitris -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/11/2017 10:37:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33
One thing that have never been validated is that HARM can be intercepted by a SAM. The thing is the size of an AMRAAM although it flys are 1/2 the speed. but just try to imagine hitting an early AIM-7 with a missile. When I asked if a HARM can be intercepted. My friends in the Air Force just laugh in my face.


I can't speak about HARM specifically, but one of the explicit design goals of the S-300V was to intercept the SRAM missile at long range, a weapon with IIRC comparable/smaller signature than the HARM and even faster. From SA-10/11/12/15 onwards everything that the Russians (and now the Chinese too) churn out is explicitly designed to engage such targets. There is a reason everyone wants direct Prowler/Growler support on an op.




Dimitris -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/11/2017 10:40:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33
There are also quite a few things that wasn't taken into accounts in sims of that era. The main thing is the man in the loop time. Providing that the launch platform was not detected and the first sign of an attack is when the missiles pop over the radar horizon. How much time passes before the first radar contact to when the defensive fire begins. In most sims, it's almost instant but what happens in real life?


OODA values (per-contact response delay). We have them.




Dimitris -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/11/2017 10:50:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33
While I used to have an hand in a lot of Naval sims from the 80s to 90s. SSI, EA, 360, Sim Can. I have not really been active in the community since the genre died (soon after EA dropped the the Jane's line). Although I still picked up pretty much all the modern military sims and try to at least keep an casual eye all all the new platforms since then. If the scenario that the OP was playing happens in 92 as someone thought. Then there is something wrong.


You're assuming the OP did a Loring-grade attack, with Loring-grade allocation and TOTs to properly overwhelm the SAG defences.




Wiz33 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/11/2017 10:52:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33
There are also quite a few things that wasn't taken into accounts in sims of that era. The main thing is the man in the loop time. Providing that the launch platform was not detected and the first sign of an attack is when the missiles pop over the radar horizon. How much time passes before the first radar contact to when the defensive fire begins. In most sims, it's almost instant but what happens in real life?


OODA values (per-contact response delay). We have them.


quote:

S-300V


I remember that from one of the early beta thread. it's about time at not only can you simulate human response, you can also simulate training level/crew proficiency.




Wiz33 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/11/2017 10:56:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33
While I used to have an hand in a lot of Naval sims from the 80s to 90s. SSI, EA, 360, Sim Can. I have not really been active in the community since the genre died (soon after EA dropped the the Jane's line). Although I still picked up pretty much all the modern military sims and try to at least keep an casual eye all all the new platforms since then. If the scenario that the OP was playing happens in 92 as someone thought. Then there is something wrong.


You're assuming the OP did a Loring-grade attack, with Loring-grade allocation and TOTs to properly overwhelm the SAG defences.



While he did not name the scenario. he did say "I was probably lucky that even one Harpoon got through (64 fired from 8 B-52s)." So I assume it's a Loring strike as the time period sounds right.




Wiz33 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/11/2017 10:58:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33
One thing that have never been validated is that HARM can be intercepted by a SAM. The thing is the size of an AMRAAM although it flys are 1/2 the speed. but just try to imagine hitting an early AIM-7 with a missile. When I asked if a HARM can be intercepted. My friends in the Air Force just laugh in my face.


I can't speak about HARM specifically, but one of the explicit design goals of the S-300V was to intercept the SRAM missile at long range, a weapon with IIRC comparable/smaller signature than the HARM and even faster. From SA-10/11/12/15 onwards everything that the Russians (and now the Chinese too) churn out is explicitly designed to engage such targets. There is a reason everyone wants direct Prowler/Growler support on an op.


Guess it would be nice if anyone have some handy data lying around with the Radar signature of a SRAM vs a HARM ;-)




Dimitris -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/11/2017 11:47:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33
While I used to have an hand in a lot of Naval sims from the 80s to 90s. SSI, EA, 360, Sim Can. I have not really been active in the community since the genre died (soon after EA dropped the the Jane's line). Although I still picked up pretty much all the modern military sims and try to at least keep an casual eye all all the new platforms since then. If the scenario that the OP was playing happens in 92 as someone thought. Then there is something wrong.


You're assuming the OP did a Loring-grade attack, with Loring-grade allocation and TOTs to properly overwhelm the SAG defences.



While he did not name the scenario. he did say "I was probably lucky that even one Harpoon got through (64 fired from 8 B-52s)." So I assume it's a Loring strike as the time period sounds right.



You missed my point. You are assuming he made a good attack (careful target selection, weapon allocation, TOTs etc.), as the B-52D/G crews were trained to do. It's very probable he did not.

In fact, without a concrete save file to explicitly state all the parameters of the engagement, this entire discussion is utterly pointless.




Wiz33 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/12/2017 12:51:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33
While I used to have an hand in a lot of Naval sims from the 80s to 90s. SSI, EA, 360, Sim Can. I have not really been active in the community since the genre died (soon after EA dropped the the Jane's line). Although I still picked up pretty much all the modern military sims and try to at least keep an casual eye all all the new platforms since then. If the scenario that the OP was playing happens in 92 as someone thought. Then there is something wrong.


You're assuming the OP did a Loring-grade attack, with Loring-grade allocation and TOTs to properly overwhelm the SAG defences.



While he did not name the scenario. he did say "I was probably lucky that even one Harpoon got through (64 fired from 8 B-52s)." So I assume it's a Loring strike as the time period sounds right.



You missed my point. You are assuming he made a good attack (careful target selection, weapon allocation, TOTs etc.), as the B-52D/G crews were trained to do. It's very probable he did not.

In fact, without a concrete save file to explicitly state all the parameters of the engagement, this entire discussion is utterly pointless.


Ah, true. Will see if I can find that scenario. Probably a user created one by the sound of it? (The Seventh Battle)?




Excroat3 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/12/2017 1:27:55 AM)

Yeah, its my scenario (The Seventh Battle)

If I remember correctly, I think the SAG he is talking about is a SAG on steroids. The ships are the remnants of two carrier groups. These are the ships in the SAG:

Tallinn (Udaloy)
Chervona Ukrina (Slava Class Guided Missile Cruiser)
Stoikiy (Sov)
Ustinov (Slava Class Guided Missile Cruiser)
Otlichniy (Sov)
Kalinin (Kirov class battlecruiser)
Azov (Kara class missile cruiser)
1x Kresta
1x Slava




Coiler12 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/12/2017 1:43:55 AM)

Have the scen loaded now. All the SAG groups in it are:

Gorshkov:
Gorshkov/Kiev
Sovremenny
Udaloy x2
Kara

Kuznetsov:
Kuznetsov
Slava
Sovremenny
Udaloy x2

Moskva:
Moskva x2
Kara
Slava
Udaloy x2
Sovremenny x2

Ex-Varyag:
Kara
Kresta
Udaloy
Sovremenny x2
Kirov
Slava x3

However, even with the scen, the claim of "Harpoons not working" is useless without an exact save. It could be poor coordination, unlucky rolls[1], or both. It could easily have been a sloppy attack on the strongest group with a lot of dice rolls that favored the defender.




Wiz33 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/12/2017 2:56:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Excroat3

Yeah, its my scenario (The Seventh Battle)

If I remember correctly, I think the SAG he is talking about is a SAG on steroids. The ships are the remnants of two carrier groups. These are the ships in the SAG:

Tallinn (Udaloy)
Chervona Ukrina (Slava Class Guided Missile Cruiser)
Stoikiy (Sov)
Ustinov (Slava Class Guided Missile Cruiser)
Otlichniy (Sov)
Kalinin (Kirov class battlecruiser)
Azov (Kara class missile cruiser)
1x Kresta
1x Slava



I'll have to give it a try as The 6th battle is a really fun read back in the days. I actually ended up with 2 copies as I bought another one thinking I have lost/misplaced my original and then found it later on.




Wiz33 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/12/2017 3:11:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coiler12

Have the scen loaded now. All the SAG groups in it are:

Gorshkov:
Gorshkov/Kiev
Sovremenny
Udaloy x2
Kara

Kuznetsov:
Kuznetsov
Slava
Sovremenny
Udaloy x2

Moskva:
Moskva x2
Kara
Slava
Udaloy x2
Sovremenny x2

Ex-Varyag:
Kara
Kresta
Udaloy
Sovremenny x2
Kirov
Slava x3

However, even with the scen, the claim of "Harpoons not working" is useless without an exact save. It could be poor coordination, unlucky rolls[1], or both. It could easily have been a sloppy attack on the strongest group with a lot of dice rolls that favored the defender.



Yea, can't read too much into it without a save. But my post was mainly to point out to the varies post that follows saying that the Harpoon is useless. While it's probably not much of a threat against a modern Russian SAG nowadays. It was quite effective for the 1st 20+ years of it's service life and the Block II will continue to be a threat to any ship without modern/current CIWS for a good while.




Cik -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/12/2017 1:12:12 PM)

a harpoon is useless, but they always lose at least 1 SAM per harpoon.

the answer then is obvious: fire several more harpoons than they have SAMs.

if you do not have that many that is result of poor planning! plan better.

granted i don't really have poor luck with them that often, just need a lot fired in a very tight salvo from multiple angles after you have picked apart any offboard sensors, blinded them with the strongest jammer you have and saturated the air with decoys if available.

then they're pretty good. pressing F1 and then clicking the enemy surface group doesn't really work unless you really outmass them in which case it does probably.




kevinkins -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/12/2017 6:51:18 PM)

quote:

Loring-grade


What is that? I did a quick search and can't find anything.

Kevin




ExNusquam -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/12/2017 9:24:37 PM)

"Loring-Grade" refers to Loring AFB in Maine, which is where the Harpoon-armed B-52's were principally based.




AlphaSierra -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/13/2017 12:29:57 AM)

in your opinion, is it conceivable that a situation could arise where all satellites friendly and non friendly, have been shot down or otherwise disabled?

or can they be replaced with ease?

Are there just too many to disable/hack?

Thanks




mikmykWS -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/13/2017 12:48:35 AM)

Best bet is some kind of electronic attack because you can target the communications links and ground stations rather than having to kinetically kill every satellite which is not impossible but amazingly difficult and expensive.

Most nations have reserve satellites that can be put into orbit but again pretty expensive.

Mike




Cik -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/13/2017 2:07:04 AM)

after a while you may get the cascade which is not good news for anyone.

among other reasons it's why ASAT is probably not a good idea.




butch4343 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/13/2017 11:28:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

I kinda understand the doctrine of "Blind, Cripple and Maim": Jammer and HARM first to take out the detectability (blind), until it's completely ineffective to return fire (cripple), when the mission demands, or the target still can do harm to your units, ASM will ensure they won't do it (maim, possibly kill but wasting missiles for sinking a blind ship is unwise).

For the cheaper and non-asymmetrically prepared units, the only option is "Kill", by launching as many ASMs to saturate the fleet as possible to force them passively react for their defense, while the offset attacks (air units and submarines) are overwhelming them at the same time. But the modern vessels are very good at multi-tasking with general combat and engagement systems, this left the offensive two options by either drastically increasing more missiles to over-saturate their maximum defense (as LRASM for MK41, 200 of them to at least overwhelm 2 destroyer-protected fleet with lots of SAMs and CIWS), or, consider an asymmetrical countermeasure.




Dysta,

A quick question, your strategy outlined above makes perfect sense to me, how does co-operative engagements change the engagement dynamics? Ie one DDG has its phased array disabled by ARMS, another in the SAG can direct and fire missiles in its VLS using datalinks. That makes the attackers job harder, as you will need to blind all the SAGs Radars in order to kill the SAM threat to attackers?

Regards

Butch




VIF2NE -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (7/14/2017 12:49:11 PM)

The homing unit Harpoon missile was investigated by Soviet specialists for a long time. EW systems used the vulnerabilities found. Similar happened to SS-N-2 Styx. So it was a great chance that the missiles just fall into the water. Sovremenny class knowingly had two powerful 130mm guns. There were fears that only artillery would be used.




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