Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (Full Version)

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RagingKrikkit -> Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/14/2016 4:04:21 AM)

As the title says, this is probably a bad idea, but would it be possible to load up a CS with float fighters and floatplanes with 4x60kg loads, sneak them into Allied-control sea, and use them as a surprise commerce raider?

In theory, it should be easier for a modified CL to make it through naval patrols than a CV or CVL, and while the bombs aren't going to do nearly as much damage, they can still tie up transports in port, kill embarked troops, and with up to 80 of them, you're probably going to hit something.

It's probably impractical, but is it even feasible? How do you like to make use of the CSs?



PaxMondo -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/14/2016 4:15:46 AM)

Too vulnerable and too valuable for me. CS with Jake or Norm gives the KB long range eyes ... without necessarily exposing the KB location that Kate would as Jake/Norms can be on many platforms. Then flip those into ASW roles as needed, again relieving a role from the attack craft of the KB. Jake has great range in an ASW role ... coupled with an ASW SCTF they are quite effective.



CyrusSpitama -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/14/2016 5:04:21 AM)

Japan has a severe shortage of CVs ( and CVLs) and the usefulness of these CS pre-convert is just too good. I never move these guys around without nice escort. Certainly would not foray them into enemy lines as a raider. I do admit to having used them in fleets that spotted nearby raiders/fleets. They have a decent punch (consider IJN lack of AA early on) and do great scouting duty.

I am no master but, I use my CS to resize all these float plane squadrons and then use them NEAR but not AT front lines to help spot troublesome subs. Especially near Cam Ranh Bay ( die evil Dutch subs!) and Takao/Hong Kong. More specifically, I dump all their squadrons at a nice airfield and immediately begin ASW training. By Feb, you have at least two usable squadrons of mobile ASW assets. Knowing you are placing them near subs, I highly recommend not moving them too far away from a good sized port... Also, consider releasing all their existing pilots at game start to get fresh rookies to train first in ASW then some Nav Search. Their skill rockets upwards if fresh rookies out of school. These are one of my last early squadrons to get pilots to ensure they are truly rookies.

P.S. Pax, you integrate them into the KB or use them as an escort fleet? I never tried this but, if I kept one of these in the KB... hrmm. Food for thought.



mind_messing -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/14/2016 1:36:33 PM)

I try to preserve the CS to convert to CVL, they're much more useful as CVLs.

Until then, they're used much the same as AV's to support floatplane operations, or along with the KB.

If I'm using them with the KB, I like to swap the Jakes out for Rufes - an extra fifty or so float fighters can really bulk out the KB's CAP. The Rufe might not be able to go toe-to-toe with the likes of the Wildcats, but they can shoot down Devastators or Dauntless without much difficulty.



dr.hal -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/14/2016 2:59:24 PM)

There are other reasons not to do this, one is the weather. CS aircraft, float aircraft in general (from CAs and BBs) are very susceptible to weather and will fly only when the weather is good... which is not all that often (unless you are playing with unrealistic weather). Another reason to not do this is my own experience in the game. There are two Japanese raiders at sea in the start of the game each with a plane, I've never been able to do much more with them other than get them sunk... You would think that the raiders would have a field day, but in truth, there are SO few ships at sea at the beginning of the game and after that, ships are escorted, that raiding is a non-starter.



szmike -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/14/2016 3:05:20 PM)

Not to mention their pitiful bombs wouldn't do that much damage. Imho much less then CA/CL raiders.



Anachro -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/14/2016 3:29:20 PM)

As others mention, I guess you could, but you are putting valuable future light carriers at risk. Case in point: my opponent lost the CS Chiyoda off of Trincomalee when it accidently ran into a BB task force of mine.



Taxcutter -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/14/2016 4:14:17 PM)

This is not an entirely stupid idea - at least not in the first three months of the campaign.

Any American player with any brains is gonna run his super-valuable carriers to someplace safe. If the CS TF stays more than 8 hexes from a US base the risk is minimal. Even Jakes can shoot down Catalinas and B-17Ds operate at too high an altitude to be much of a threat. The main threat is allied surface combatants, but folding 2-3 CAs into the TF reduces the risk.

By also including otherwise useless (IMO) Japanese CLs in separate but cooperating task force offsets the weak bombs carried by floatplanes. The floatplanes merely form a very large scouting force for the CLs. If the allied merchants are caught unescorted (or lightly escorted) the CLs close in for the kill. Also the IJN has some AMCs that might be useful in this role. japanese subs not equipped with Glens could benefit from better scouting to get more contacts.

There is a big "dead spot" in US air search halfway between SF and Pearl. One good raid in this area forces the allies to take a more circumspect route to Pearl. Getting such a force east of Christmas island likewise disrupts LA-Australia routes.

Weather is just a problem that has to be dealt with, but it affects the allies as well. Weather in the Indian Ocean is generally less violent than the North pacific and there will be happy hunting as stuff retreats out of Singapore and the DEI. British escort is short-legged and their aircraft are even worse. You might rack up a lot of cheap VP raiding xAKs fleeing known deathtraps.

All the same, the canny IJ leader withdraws these force about the end of March 1942. Risk goes up as more allied forces enter the theater and the multiple uncoverable routes diminishes by then.


Since my game with Ironman went up in a puff of Microsoft smoke, maybe I'll try this.



Anachro -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/14/2016 4:24:28 PM)

quote:

Any American player with any brains is gonna run his super-valuable carriers to someplace safe.


I disagree. Allied carriers can be used early on, even with Buffalos, as long as is it done smartly and in the manner of calculated risk. This whole Sir Robin mentality does more harm than good for Allied players; and if a good Japanese player is sure you are going to do it, he'll adjust his plans accordingly and make you pay. A good general makes his decisions based on what his opponent can do, not what he thinks his opponent will do. I like to keep the Japanese player honest and guessing. If I don't, then he can be far more aggressive. My opinion.



GetAssista -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/14/2016 7:02:21 PM)

I've done it, it works in practice in a sence that planes fly and hit ships sometimes.
But 1) bombs are puny 2) pilot skills needed are diffferent from usual "FP" set 3) weather shuts down ops easily 4) Jakes suffer more from AA than proper dive/torp bombers.

Bottomline - it is not worth the risk, unless against AI where you can use CS to block off portions of ocean to lessen the effects of AI always knowing where your CVs are and rerouting transport TFs.



rustysi -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/14/2016 10:44:49 PM)

quote:

There are two Japanese raiders at sea in the start of the game each with a plane, I've never been able to do much more with them other than get them sunk...


Well that answers a nagging question I've had since day one.[:D]



CyrusSpitama -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/14/2016 11:44:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

There are two Japanese raiders at sea in the start of the game each with a plane, I've never been able to do much more with them other than get them sunk...


Early on with AE, I never noticed these ships. After a few initial restarts, I noticed them and they assisted with Rabaul. Took some hits but they did help with all those pesky PTs at the base.

Honestly, I have barely attempted any raiding at all except for small forays past Port Blair. I have not once tried the Allied side so, raiding with them is a non-issue. Is this a bad thing? [:D]



AW1Steve -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/15/2016 1:50:54 AM)

The CS gambit is not a bad idea....EARLY in the game. Use them with the raiders (AMC's) or with cruisers. BUT not as a raider itself, but using it's planes to find targets for cruiser or raiders guns. Rufe's give a decent air defense . But only use these ships in this manner for the 1st couple of months of the game, when your opponent is totally disorganized and confused. The allies can't do much as their ships are scattered in the worst possible way , and pretty much confusion reigns. Then you can pick off unescorted ships and convoys as they try to flee. But once your opponent regroups , reorganizes and in general gets his head together , you need to pull ALL your raiders out. Or he will hunt you down and kill you.



Lokasenna -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/15/2016 8:08:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: szmike

Not to mention their pitiful bombs wouldn't do that much damage. Imho much less then CA/CL raiders.


I once lost an xAK to a single 60kg bomb. Burned right up. It was empty, too.



LargeSlowTarget -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/15/2016 1:31:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

There are two Japanese raiders at sea in the start of the game each with a plane, I've never been able to do much more with them other than get them sunk...


Well that answers a nagging question I've had since day one.[:D]


Check the skippers on the Japanese AMCs - baaaad naval and aggression stats for surface actions. The pair that starts at sea get orders to RTB immediately for change-of-command ceremonies.



szmike -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/15/2016 4:44:14 PM)

this pair would perform better if given decent experience, as it is their exp is about 20/15



CyrusSpitama -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/15/2016 8:39:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

There are two Japanese raiders at sea in the start of the game each with a plane, I've never been able to do much more with them other than get them sunk...


Well that answers a nagging question I've had since day one.[:D]


Check the skippers on the Japanese AMCs - baaaad naval and aggression stats for surface actions. The pair that starts at sea get orders to RTB immediately for change-of-command ceremonies.

Not to detour too much, but I only somewhat recently realized exactly how poor all the many ship commanders are that are currently assigned; several IJN CV/CVLs come to mind. One of my now early tasks, usually 2nd or 3rd day of new game, I go through all of those many aux, cargo, and then each dd/sc types to ensure best results from their commands. I also of course change a handful of land commanders for best results there.

I do think these many PPs spent are well worth the cost. It is especially noticeable in the SC anti-sub performance with all those pesky starting subs up near the main sea lanes. While they aren't exactly sinking those subs, they are certainly finding and harassing them more often. This is vital in my humble opinion due to the poor air based ASW training of the pilots. There is just no decent ASW trained pilots anywhere in the ranks.



mind_messing -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/16/2016 12:59:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CyrusSpitama

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

There are two Japanese raiders at sea in the start of the game each with a plane, I've never been able to do much more with them other than get them sunk...


Well that answers a nagging question I've had since day one.[:D]


Check the skippers on the Japanese AMCs - baaaad naval and aggression stats for surface actions. The pair that starts at sea get orders to RTB immediately for change-of-command ceremonies.

Not to detour too much, but I only somewhat recently realized exactly how poor all the many ship commanders are that are currently assigned; several IJN CV/CVLs come to mind. One of my now early tasks, usually 2nd or 3rd day of new game, I go through all of those many aux, cargo, and then each dd/sc types to ensure best results from their commands. I also of course change a handful of land commanders for best results there.

I do think these many PPs spent are well worth the cost. It is especially noticeable in the SC anti-sub performance with all those pesky starting subs up near the main sea lanes. While they aren't exactly sinking those subs, they are certainly finding and harassing them more often. This is vital in my humble opinion due to the poor air based ASW training of the pilots. There is just no decent ASW trained pilots anywhere in the ranks.


There's a IJN heavy cruiser that starts of Malaya that has a right diddy in command as well. What's even better is that in two games running he's managed to get into collisions on Dec 8th or 9th before I get the chance to replace him with someone who has the appropriate number of fingers.

As for the captains of the small SC and PB boats...eh, undecided. The crew EXP ratings are very important as well in the ASW routine, and the PB/SC classes all have abysmal EXP, and the commander pool isn't all that great either. On top of that, you don't get decent depth charges till later in the war. I only ever really bother for the E-class ships in the later game, the ones with ASW weapons that might actually kill things.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: szmike

Not to mention their pitiful bombs wouldn't do that much damage. Imho much less then CA/CL raiders.


I once lost an xAK to a single 60kg bomb. Burned right up. It was empty, too.



Oh yeah, I remember that. Ah Canton Island, I remember you fondly.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

There are two Japanese raiders at sea in the start of the game each with a plane, I've never been able to do much more with them other than get them sunk...


Well that answers a nagging question I've had since day one.[:D]


Check the skippers on the Japanese AMCs - baaaad naval and aggression stats for surface actions. The pair that starts at sea get orders to RTB immediately for change-of-command ceremonies.


Even if you put Tanaka in command, it won't make much difference. Even though they've an impressive armament (15cm guns and torps, IIRC), they'll get chewed up by even the smallest escort ships, and on Dec 7th I think there's something like an American CA, an Australian CA and another 3 Allied CL that all start nearby.



CyrusSpitama -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/16/2016 1:30:06 AM)

m_m, there is quite a lot of good/decent naval commanders for those small boats. A better commander helps those lil guys exp a bit faster, and therefore increase the ship performance. I see a noticeable difference in the number of sub contacts when their(SCs and such) commanders go from poop diddly to moderate skills.

My two main skills for those commanders is a naval of near 50 and decent aggression. Let us not forget leadership when you can get it so they exp a bit better [:'(]



rustysi -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/16/2016 3:59:48 AM)

I doubt that I'll ever have PP's to spend on SC's & PB's much less Aux vessels. Just not gonna happen. Too many other higher priorities.



CyrusSpitama -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/16/2016 6:20:43 AM)

quote:

I doubt that I'll ever have PP's to spend on SC's & PB's much less Aux vessels. Just not gonna happen. Too many other higher priorities.


Disclaimer: I am in no way considered a vet with this game.

Make no mistake, I never meant to change all those PBs in the fleet. I do glance them over and pick out the handful of combat commanders they already have assigned though. They are far too numerous and far too weak of a ship for me to bother with changing leaders. I was mentioning things like AMC, SCs, a select few CMs, some of the PC craft, LSDs, the APDs, and not to mention a good review of all the actual combat ships.

Seems to me, with the cost of a full ID being roughly 1800 PPs, we are looking at (being very generous here) say 600 PPs for these *aux* ships I mention. So we are discussing 1/3 of a full ID in question here? Is it the timing of this cost to you that is not appealing?

I would dare suggest to you, try and *dress up* a small number of these small ships and watch their crews and ship performance rise somewhat quickly. To me, it is worth preventing the small ship losses due to all those early subs harassing the lanes.


>>Back on topic, I recently *adopted* a CS into the KB to harass what remains of Singapore's defenses. I chose one of the smaller ones as the 24s are still moving around adjusting base float plane sizes. The crew is all in the high 50s and low 60s in ASW and about the same for Nav Search. Just waiting for a little more Jake production to upgrade them all from Petes.



GetAssista -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/16/2016 7:11:57 AM)

Most of cargo and tanker ships have zero PP cost for captain change. This is where I do changes on turn 1. With vast Japan captain pools all those get 50+ naval



rustysi -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/17/2016 1:06:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CyrusSpitama

quote:

I doubt that I'll ever have PP's to spend on SC's & PB's much less Aux vessels. Just not gonna happen. Too many other higher priorities.


Disclaimer: I am in no way considered a vet with this game.

Make no mistake, I never meant to change all those PBs in the fleet. I do glance them over and pick out the handful of combat commanders they already have assigned though. They are far too numerous and far too weak of a ship for me to bother with changing leaders. I was mentioning things like AMC, SCs, a select few CMs, some of the PC craft, LSDs, the APDs, and not to mention a good review of all the actual combat ships.

Seems to me, with the cost of a full ID being roughly 1800 PPs, we are looking at (being very generous here) say 600 PPs for these *aux* ships I mention. So we are discussing 1/3 of a full ID in question here? Is it the timing of this cost to you that is not appealing?

I would dare suggest to you, try and *dress up* a small number of these small ships and watch their crews and ship performance rise somewhat quickly. To me, it is worth preventing the small ship losses due to all those early subs harassing the lanes.


>>Back on topic, I recently *adopted* a CS into the KB to harass what remains of Singapore's defenses. I chose one of the smaller ones as the 24s are still moving around adjusting base float plane sizes. The crew is all in the high 50s and low 60s in ASW and about the same for Nav Search. Just waiting for a little more Jake production to upgrade them all from Petes.


A thousand players, a thousand ways to play. Not saying you should or shouldn't, its a player preference. I've played out to Dec '42 and haven't had PP's to spare for such things, but of course YMMV.



rustysi -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/17/2016 1:09:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Most of cargo and tanker ships have zero PP cost for captain change. This is where I do changes on turn 1. With vast Japan captain pools all those get 50+ naval


Learn something new everyday, never even looked before. Oh great, now I have one more thing to do, just what i needed!!![:D]

Thanks for the info.[;)]



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/21/2016 11:32:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

The CS gambit is not a bad idea....EARLY in the game. Use them with the raiders (AMC's) or with cruisers. BUT not as a raider itself, but using it's planes to find targets for cruiser or raiders guns. Rufe's give a decent air defense . But only use these ships in this manner for the 1st couple of months of the game, when your opponent is totally disorganized and confused. The allies can't do much as their ships are scattered in the worst possible way , and pretty much confusion reigns. Then you can pick off unescorted ships and convoys as they try to flee. But once your opponent regroups , reorganizes and in general gets his head together , you need to pull ALL your raiders out. Or he will hunt you down and kill you.

There is sadly one fatal flaw in this plan. The Japanese player has no Rufes in the first few months :(



PaxMondo -> RE: Stupid Idea: CS as Infiltration Carrier (9/21/2016 12:32:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

The CS gambit is not a bad idea....EARLY in the game. Use them with the raiders (AMC's) or with cruisers. BUT not as a raider itself, but using it's planes to find targets for cruiser or raiders guns. Rufe's give a decent air defense . But only use these ships in this manner for the 1st couple of months of the game, when your opponent is totally disorganized and confused. The allies can't do much as their ships are scattered in the worst possible way , and pretty much confusion reigns. Then you can pick off unescorted ships and convoys as they try to flee. But once your opponent regroups , reorganizes and in general gets his head together , you need to pull ALL your raiders out. Or he will hunt you down and kill you.

There is sadly one fatal flaw in this plan. The Japanese player has no Rufes in the first few months :(

+1



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