RE: Aircraft Pathways (Full Version)

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John 3rd -> RE: Aircraft Pathways (9/26/2017 11:54:31 PM)

Here is my first pass at revision and thinking with each line:

ZERO Line
A6M2 12/41
A6M5 8/43 (10/42) Move back two months--12/42

ZERO FB Line
A6M2 Sen Baku 10/42 (10/42)
A6M7 This plane is not built. The M5 is the LAST of the ZERO Line.

NEED a new FB Candidate from the other planes!

SAM
A7M2 9/45 (2/44) CV Variant Move back to 1/45 which still brings it in 8 months early.
A7M3-J 1/46 (12/44) Move back to 5/45 but still 7 months early.
A7M3 (6/45) CV Variant Also in 5/45.

SAM gets the benefit of more attention but it is still a late-war naval fighter.

JACK
JNM2 9/43 (9/43) Move up to 5/43.
JNM3 4/44 (4/44) Move up to 12/43.
JNM5 1/45 (1/45) Move up to 8/44

JACK-CV Variant
JNM3a (9/44) Move to 4/44.
JNM3b (2/45) Move to 10/44.

The JACK directly benefits from the full attention of the ZERO Design Team, however, its issues stay. This is why a CV-Variant doesn't appear for over a year of time. LOTS of problems leading it to KEEP its high SR.

GEORGE
N1K1-J 9/43 (1/43) Move back to 3/43.
N1K5-J 10/45 (5/45) Move to 4/45.

GEORGE-CV Variant
N1K2-J 11/44 (1/44) Move back to 5/44.
N1K4-A (1/45) Leave at 1/45.

GEORGE advances roughly six months reflecting direct Ministry support for the aircraft. Still has issues, just like JACK, and cannot produce a CV-Variant until 14 months after its debut on the ground.


SUMMATION:
M5 is the sole Japanese CV-Based Fighter until either 1.) JACK 4/44, 2.) SAM 1/45, or 3.0 GEORGE 5/44.

I would say that this SUCKS from a Japanese view but it is probably the best they can hope for...the Japanese can move planes up but they shall spend huge amounts of supply and resources to do so. It is one heck of a choice!




Comments now please...



ny59giants -> RE: Aircraft Pathways (9/26/2017 11:54:37 PM)

We have to ensure the fighters are balanced for both sides and what can go on CVs. I devoted 8 factories to George. Three were switched to produce 1st gen by Oct/Nov 42 and the second gen will be Apr 43 using five factories and engine bonus. So I’m getting an advance every 20 Days. This was from 1/44.



John 3rd -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/26/2017 11:55:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Apparently Johns intention is for Japan to have superior CV fighters for the entire war. [&:]


Don't think this statement applies with the revision. What do you think?



John 3rd -> RE: Aircraft Pathways (9/27/2017 12:08:25 AM)

Michael:

Going by your work and using these production lines and dates, when could you--reasonably--deploy George? More importantly when could you deploy a CV-Based 2nd Gen Fighter?



Kitakami -> RE: Aircraft Pathways (9/27/2017 12:17:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Here is my first pass at revision and thinking with each line:

ZERO Line
A6M2 12/41
A6M5 8/43 (10/42) Move back two months--12/42

This looks good to me.

quote:


ZERO FB Line
A6M2 Sen Baku 10/42 (10/42)
A6M7 This plane is not built. The M5 is the LAST of the ZERO Line.

NEED a new FB Candidate from the other planes!

This also looks good to me.
What about a FB version of the A6M5, since the M% is the end of the line?

quote:


SAM
A7M2 9/45 (2/44) CV Variant Move back to 1/45 which still brings it in 8 months early.
A7M3-J 1/46 (12/44) Move back to 5/45 but still 7 months early.
A7M3 (6/45) CV Variant Also in 5/45.

SAM gets the benefit of more attention but it is still a late-war naval fighter.

Agreed, but I am not an expert on late war. Others will have to pitch in as to the timing.

quote:


JACK
JNM2 9/43 (9/43) Move up to 5/43.
JNM3 4/44 (4/44) Move up to 12/43.
JNM5 1/45 (1/45) Move up to 8/44

JACK-CV Variant
JNM3a (9/44) Move to 4/44.
JNM3b (2/45) Move to 10/44.

The JACK directly benefits from the full attention of the ZERO Design Team, however, its issues stay. This is why a CV-Variant doesn't appear for over a year of time. LOTS of problems leading it to KEEP its high SR.

This looks good, and the teething problems may be ironed out with research factories.

quote:


GEORGE
N1K1-J 9/43 (1/43) Move back to 3/43.
N1K5-J 10/45 (5/45) Move to 4/45.

GEORGE-CV Variant
N1K2-J 11/44 (1/44) Move back to 5/44.
N1K4-A (1/45) Leave at 1/45.

GEORGE advances roughly six months reflecting direct Ministry support for the aircraft. Still has issues, just like JACK, and cannot produce a CV-Variant until 14 months after its debut on the ground.

This is the one thing that worries me. Perhaps three months is better than six. Just a thought.

quote:


SUMMATION:
M5 is the sole Japanese CV-Based Fighter until either 1.) JACK 4/44, 2.) SAM 1/45, or 3.0 GEORGE 5/44.

I would say that this SUCKS from a Japanese view but it is probably the best they can hope for...the Japanese can move planes up but they shall spend huge amounts of supply and resources to do so. It is one heck of a choice!

That is if no heavy research efforts are focused in either the Jack or the George, which I am sure they will be, so it does not suck as much.

Just my 2 cents.




John 3rd -> RE: Aircraft Pathways (9/27/2017 12:28:13 AM)

Good Thoughts. More?



BillBrown -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 1:11:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Apparently Johns intention is for Japan to have superior CV fighters for the entire war. [&:]


Don't think this statement applies with the revision. What do you think?



What revision? I don't see one posted on your site. I am using the Sept 25th one.



John 3rd -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 4:53:10 AM)

Haven't placed the new one up yet. Am meaning what is listed up here.



ny59giants -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 9:52:28 AM)

quote:

GEORGE
N1K1-J 9/43 (1/43) Move back to 3/43.
N1K5-J 10/45 (5/45) Move to 4/45.

GEORGE-CV Variant
N1K2-J 11/44 (1/44) Move back to 5/44.
N1K4-A (1/45) Leave at 1/45.

GEORGE advances roughly six months reflecting direct Ministry support for the aircraft. Still has issues, just like JACK, and cannot produce a CV-Variant until 14 months after its debut on the ground.


First and foremost, I'm still a relative novice when it comes to playing Japan. My comments are based on current game that is in Feb '43.

NiK1-J (3/43) to N1K2-J (5/44) to N1K4-A (1/45) to N1K5-J (4/45) is the upgrade path for Mr George. Correct??

If so, then the K1 should come in Nov/Dec 42. A very minor advance. However, by devoting about 8 factories to the George line, all those size 30 R&D factories will be repaired and ready to accelerate the 2nd gen planes. Add in the engine bonus and you can advance a month in 20 days (based on what I have happening in my game vs GP). So the 20 days to advance starts in Dec '42 and the CV variant 'may' arrive in Jul/Aug '43.

John - Just remember when figuring out start dates, its the 2nd gen plane and later planes that truly benefit from significant R&D efforts as the size 30 factories should all be repaired.



Zecke -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 9:56:22 AM)

YES¡: we must found the key to found good japan opponets.



John 3rd -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 1:01:16 PM)

I was thinking about having the aircraft in TWO, separate design paths so the player has to decide if he wants to really move the Land or the Naval version forward rapidly. Would cost more and take up more research time. Do you think that would be too much?



bristolduke -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 1:21:03 PM)

From the write up I can't tell the difference from BTS4.1 and BTSL 4.1. Is there any?



Lecivius -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 1:31:32 PM)

I'm still thinking on a bad angle on the tech spiral. If you move up 2nd gen Hellcats, all the follow on (Bearcat etc.) has to get advanced as well. Same for Allied land based aircraft, they need to advance as well. Anything else, and the allied player gets stiffed.



Kitakami -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 1:59:35 PM)

Perhaps this would work:
N1K1-J (9/43) -> N1K2-J (8/44) -> N1K4-A (4/45) -> N1K5-J (7/45)

If number crunching with 8x 30-size research factories shows the N1K2 would arrive too early, then change it back to:
N1K1-J (12/43) -> N1K2-J (11/44) -> N1K4-A (7/45) -> N1K5-J (10/45)

I am not entirely comfortable with splitting the research effort in two, but that is only me, and you are the experts. Yet, I also think things should not be accelerated to the point where the US planes need to be brought forward. That could lead to too many unintended consequences. I think the focus should be on "what would have been the consequences of ending the A6M program with the A6M5?", nothing more, and nothing game-breaking. The simpler the solution, the better, but I think it should include more advances for the J2M than for the N1K (if any at all for the N1K). After all, the J2M was also a Mitsubishi plane.

To put it in perspective, I think the N1K2-J should arrive AFTER the F4U-1A, which debuts in October of '43, even after acceleration.

Just my 2 cents.



John 3rd -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 2:51:20 PM)

Not bad Kitakami. I'll think on that some more.

Lecivius--I tend to agree with you. A tech spiral would be bad and we want to be somewhat appropriate.

As a thought--following Kitakami's thought--what about putting the effort into JACK seeing it advance some and let GEORGE be GEORGE. If player still want to advance that line then they can if so desired by spending all that research effort.

Will throw out a proposal in a while.



John 3rd -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 2:56:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bristolduke

From the write up I can't tell the difference from BTS4.1 and BTSL 4.1. Is there any?


Only the BB decision is the difference. In BTS the Japanese build the Yamtao's. In BTSL, they build the Owari (3x3 16.1" Guns) and get them deployed earlier as well as work on two B-65 BCs for fast CV Escort. The time, money, and resources saved in NOT building the Yamato-Class allows for all sorts of other building option with Japan.

Do you want the option of 4 monster Yamato-Class OR 4 conventional BBs of the Owari-Class and 2 B-65?



John 3rd -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 7:09:45 PM)

More I've thought about it, while at work, the more I agree on shifting GEORGE back some. Will have a proposal in a bit.



bristolduke -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 7:26:29 PM)

Thanks



John 3rd -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 9:18:42 PM)

OK. Here is the Real Life George Production Line w/Year and Month:

GEORGE
N1K1-J 09/43
N1K2-J 11/44
N1K5-J 10/45

Mod GEORGE Production Line
N1K1-J 9/43
N1K2-J 11/44 (CV)
N1K4-A 1/45 (CV)
N1K5-J 10/45 (CV)

The Japanese have a chance to develop an excellent CV-Based Fighter but it will take a lot of research to bring it forward as the A6M5 tries to hold the line. We'll say that instead of moving the plane models earlier, the extra research goes into creating a model strong enough for landings on the carrier.



John 3rd -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 9:27:46 PM)

The JACK Line:

JACK
JNM2 9/43 Move up to 5/43--Advance 4 Months
JNM3 4/44 Move up to 12/43--Advance 5 Months
JNM5 1/45 Move up to 8/44--Advance 5 Months

JACK-CV Variant
JNM3a 4/44--Allows 5 Months of testing, fixing, and refinement for the CV-Based Variant
JNM3b 10/44--Six further months of work to make the plane less 'buggy' and accident prone

The JACK directly benefits from the full attention of the ZERO Design Team, however, its issues stay. This is why a CV-Variant doesn't appear for over a year of time. LOTS of problems leading it to KEEP its high SR.

Here we shall start with two production lines. This should reflect Horikoshi's Design Team moving from the ZERO to the JACK. There are no diversions to continuously do new models of the A6M Line. The plane has all sorts of issues and problems but it is brought in by sheer force of will and dedication by the Designers.



John 3rd -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 9:31:14 PM)

The best, at the end of the war, is still the SAM:

SAM
A7M2 11/44
A7M3 4/45
A7M3-J 5/45

SAM gets the benefit of more attention but it is still a late-war naval fighter.




John 3rd -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 9:38:29 PM)

CV-Variant Summary:

A6M2 to A6M5 in October 1942
JNM3a deploys April 1944 with an upgrade in October 1944
N1K2-J deploys November 1944 with an upgrade in N1K4-A in January 1945
A7M2 deploys November 1944 with upgrade in April 1945

There will be a long dry spell between A6M5 and whatever you focus research on. Look like a nightmare that could be a lot of fun for the Japanese Player.

Done. Thoughts???



ny59giants -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 10:32:26 PM)

A6M5 - can she get some armor??



John 3rd -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 11:02:28 PM)

Not in the design line Sir. Still love ya though...



Kitakami -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/27/2017 11:50:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
OK. Here is the Real Life George Production Line w/Year and Month:

GEORGE
N1K1-J 09/43
N1K2-J 11/44
N1K5-J 10/45

Mod GEORGE Production Line
N1K1-J 9/43
N1K2-J 11/44 (CV)
N1K4-A 1/45 (CV)
N1K5-J 10/45 (CV)

The Japanese have a chance to develop an excellent CV-Based Fighter but it will take a lot of research to bring it forward as the A6M5 tries to hold the line. We'll say that instead of moving the plane models earlier, the extra research goes into creating a model strong enough for landings on the carrier.

I know this is being anal, but I would suggest that CV-capable versions have the -A suffix, while the non-CV-capable versions have the -J suffix. Historical accuracy and all that ;p



Kitakami -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/28/2017 12:11:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

CV-Variant Summary:

A6M2 to A6M5 in October 1942
J2M3a deploys April 1944 with an upgrade in October 1944
N1K2-J deploys November 1944 with an upgrade in N1K4-A in January 1945
A7M2 deploys November 1944 with upgrade in April 1945

There will be a long dry spell between A6M5 and whatever you focus research on. Look like a nightmare that could be a lot of fun for the Japanese Player.

Done. Thoughts???


I like it. The N1K2-J can be advanced so that it comes in earlier by researching the N1K1-J first, and then changing the model in the research factories. The J2M line can also be researched, although the non-CV line might bear more fruit. Finally, the A7M is going to be a late-war plane, no doubt.

Of course there IS competition for research factories... the G5M/G8M heavy bombers, the B6N's & B7A's, the J7W... I like the predicament the Japanese player will be in. Will have to choose one or two, but can't choose them all if there is to be any serious advance.



John 3rd -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/28/2017 3:35:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
OK. Here is the Real Life George Production Line w/Year and Month:

GEORGE
N1K1-J 09/43
N1K2-J 11/44
N1K5-J 10/45

Mod GEORGE Production Line
N1K1-J 9/43
N1K2-J 11/44 (CV)
N1K4-A 1/45 (CV)
N1K5-J 10/45 (CV)

The Japanese have a chance to develop an excellent CV-Based Fighter but it will take a lot of research to bring it forward as the A6M5 tries to hold the line. We'll say that instead of moving the plane models earlier, the extra research goes into creating a model strong enough for landings on the carrier.

I know this is being anal, but I would suggest that CV-capable versions have the -A suffix, while the non-CV-capable versions have the -J suffix. Historical accuracy and all that ;p


Great comment. Will implement that thought.



John 3rd -> RE: BTSL Complete (9/28/2017 3:36:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

CV-Variant Summary:

A6M2 to A6M5 in October 1942
J2M3a deploys April 1944 with an upgrade in October 1944
N1K2-J deploys November 1944 with an upgrade in N1K4-A in January 1945
A7M2 deploys November 1944 with upgrade in April 1945

There will be a long dry spell between A6M5 and whatever you focus research on. Look like a nightmare that could be a lot of fun for the Japanese Player.

Done. Thoughts???


I like it. The N1K2-J can be advanced so that it comes in earlier by researching the N1K1-J first, and then changing the model in the research factories. The J2M line can also be researched, although the non-CV line might bear more fruit. Finally, the A7M is going to be a late-war plane, no doubt.

Of course there IS competition for research factories... the G5M/G8M heavy bombers, the B6N's & B7A's, the J7W... I like the predicament the Japanese player will be in. Will have to choose one or two, but can't choose them all if there is to be any serious advance.



There are BUCKETS of choices and that is something I love to add into the Mods. I do believe that this plan works. Does anyone else have comments?



John 3rd -> RE: Aircraft Pathways (9/29/2017 2:28:53 AM)

Have sent the files over to Michael to look at. NOTHING has been changed yet. Want him to take a look and then I'll change all the material we've talked about and then a release for people to take a look at prior to calling them finished.



BillBrown -> RE: RA 7.9 (9/29/2017 2:34:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

From the Sub Thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

So the USN get three that can resize and the IJN gets all of theirs?


No. You inferred. ALL pre-war US CV/CVL ships can: Lex, Sara, King's Mountain, Ely, Langley, Yorktown, Enterprise, Hornet, and Wasp. Make sense? The others come in and do their thing as per normal.


This still has not been done yet. Any chance it could get done this time?



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