Ideas on countering reserves? (Full Version)

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Disgruntled Veteran -> Ideas on countering reserves? (9/18/2016 12:23:48 PM)

First opponent I've came across (thanks Bozo) that gets reserve activations on 4/5 battles under 5:1 appx. Makes the game extremely frustrating to plan. He's pulled off some terrible upsets in 41 that just shouldn't be IMO. I know the Germans got stonewalled for much of mid summer in 41, but wishing there was a better mechanic to simulate this. Seems my options are either always attack with overwhelming force, use tons of hasty soak off attacks to remove reserves or face
many random upsets. I know the idea is to keep momentum going and prevent a front where reserves are possible, but Bozo ran the first 10 turns on most fronts. So, its a game, my 7th, just wondering if there was any tactics to help work around the system.
Reserves are not implemented well imo...for either side. Going reserve should have some setbacks other than not refitting. Any suggestions? Suck it up and quit griping maybe? Lol..



Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/18/2016 12:42:56 PM)

Oh, just some suggestions for future WITE productions. How about either:

-Since reserves on defense are supposed to be counter ATTACKING, why not make infantry have an additional 6mp in addition to the mp required to join the battle? This would be more accurate right? The way it is now the reserves get to travel 4 hexes, fight a counterattack, smoke a cig or two, then march back to their comfy beds and forts and stay dug in for the next turn. Make it soak up their mp's AND keep those units on the front. Make the defender pay a price for reserves.


-Or remove the odds calculator. Let reserves join regardless of odds. That way you could smash reserves with heavy attacks and make them pay for the gamble. As it is now the Soviets break out their field calculators and decide in the heat of battle whether to implement more troops.

Just some ideas...



swkuh -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/18/2016 4:02:51 PM)

Would be interested to hear developers' thoughts on "reserves" implementation. Your point well taken.



Michael T -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/18/2016 10:10:18 PM)

IMO the whole reserves part of the game is screwed up. Mobile reserves should be the backbone of the reserves system but in 1941 it's all about Soviet ID as reserves. And it's a spam. Basically you can put everything in reserve. Even front line units. There should have been a sensible limit per Army (one or two ID) and reserve support available within individual armies only (exception Tank/Mot). At least for 1941 as the Soviets were terrible at reacting to German moves.

You are not alone DV, I hate the reserve system as well. The Soviet need not apply any thought at all. Just put the entire Soviet army in to Reserve.



Stelteck -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/18/2016 10:52:15 PM)

Maybe units on reserve shall have penalty to digging and building fortification.

A unit cannot be very efficient at building if they are on high alert near their vehicule and ready to counter attack at any time.




Michael T -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/18/2016 11:18:43 PM)

Exactly right. Units in reserve mode definitely should not dig.



morvael -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/19/2016 7:08:07 AM)

Reserve units next to enemy unit will not join combat. Also, reserves with morale below 55 can rout from a failed battle. If you want a unit to remain in hex for ZOC purposes and it's a low grade unit, I wouldn't put it on reserve. Another drawback is that unit in reserve is not in refit mode.



No idea -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/19/2016 3:53:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

IMO the whole reserves part of the game is screwed up. Mobile reserves should be the backbone of the reserves system but in 1941 it's all about Soviet ID as reserves. And it's a spam. Basically you can put everything in reserve. Even front line units. There should have been a sensible limit per Army (one or two ID) and reserve support available within individual armies only (exception Tank/Mot). At least for 1941 as the Soviets were terrible at reacting to German moves.

You are not alone DV, I hate the reserve system as well. The Soviet need not apply any thought at all. Just put the entire Soviet army in to Reserve.



I agree. The urremt reserves system is just a clickfest of putting everything and everybody in reserve mode (well, not everybody, but 90%).



morvael -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/19/2016 4:00:35 PM)

You can use CR to do it with a few click and key presses.



charlie0311 -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/19/2016 5:50:28 PM)

Morveal is so right. All part of playing the "piano".

Disgruntled, Bozo just gets lucky, use reserve with your attack force and bomb everything.

Let's keep Stalin and Hitler out of it.



Michael T -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/19/2016 10:21:10 PM)

The process is, put the entire army in to reserve mode (easy in the CR screen). Then decide on who goes in to refit (not that many units). Then go back in to CR screen and disable reserve mode for low morale units. Done.

Really, can we at least make Reserves no dig. At least that would require some thought from the Soviet then about who becomes reserve.



Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/20/2016 1:46:11 AM)

Or a big thing would be to make defensive reserves use a deliberate attack mp cost. I'm pretty sure they don't now. Offensive reserves cost full mp to engage so why not defensive? This would pull any activated unit to the front and leave them much more likely to rout. Even if you lost the first battle, the next battle might rout the previous reserve division cause it burned its mp. At the very least it would pull it out of a digging hex. Just making the unit pay full mp would be nice.

As far as countering it. Its not hard to judge when reserves will activate..the problem is you either have to get jammed up by risking a battle with "only" 2 to 1 odds or use 4-5 to 1 odds, thus avoiding reserve calculation, and wasting excessive force. Its a very terrible implementation. I'm bitching because I've never seen anyone use it with such effect as Bozo.It literally saps half my attack power every turn having to factor in reserves. My last turn was almost comical as I was betting myself I could get 100% reserve activation in every single battle that turn. Didn't quite get that bad...but you get my point.



Michael T -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/20/2016 2:05:50 AM)

In my game with Kamil, a few years ago now. We agreed to some HR on Reserves. We limited the number per HQ by type.



rmonical -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/20/2016 6:52:08 AM)

The are some reasonable game mechanics tweaks I would like to see.
IMHO, reserve activation should be subject to interdiction attack.
There is insufficient movement penalty for reserve activation defensive . I think the defending reserve unit should actually expend movement points in combat. I also do not think it expend movement points returning to the source hex. I saw one panzer division activate 5 hexes north, 5 hexes south and two hexes away in the same turn. These were all deliberate attacks. I think the prep points concept in WITE2 addresses this behavior, but I still think defensive activation is not expensive enough.



morvael -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/20/2016 7:57:02 AM)

Disabling digging for reserve units is an easy to implement solution. Would it be enough? What about units on refit?

quote:

with "only" 2 to 1 odds or use 4-5 to 1 odds

That's how reserves are supposed to work, they don't trigger for battles when there is no hope turning the tide.



Stelteck -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/20/2016 8:59:39 AM)

Completely disabling digging for units in reserve may be a little too harsh.

A balance solution could be to give units in reserve mode the same penalty to dig as the units close to enemy units. If i remember well, non engineer element adjacent to ennemy units have a built speed divided by 3 (although i was not able to find where i read it in the manual, i may be wrong).

For refit, i see nothing wrong with the current state.



Michael T -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/20/2016 10:29:49 AM)

I would vote for no dig for reserves.



Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/20/2016 10:52:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Disabling digging for reserve units is an easy to implement solution. Would it be enough? What about units on refit?

quote:

with "only" 2 to 1 odds or use 4-5 to 1 odds

That's how reserves are supposed to work, they don't trigger for battles when there is no hope turning the tide.


I understand as it spells it out in the manual. Just pointing out then when the bulk of the Soviet front can go into reserve it makes every battle much more risky. I don't know the perfect balance tbh. I just think at a minimum the defending reserve should expend mp's to attack just like offensive reserves do. I don't know how hard this is to implement as that is done during your offturn, but no digging would be a decent change that should give the Soviet a tactical trade off.



morvael -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/20/2016 10:59:05 AM)

It's easy to implement. Doubling MP cost of reserves to account for moving back into original position is also possible.



charlie0311 -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/20/2016 5:02:12 PM)

Pls wait on this, or make very slight change ( no dig but only if activate ). Game is in pretty delicate balance as it is.

The system of reserve activations adds fun, let's see if the players can devise a better offensive method.

BTW my russkies did a "number" on Bozo gerries in blizzard, mild, no bonus, reserve activations inc. But I'm just lucky.

Bozo likely has a fire brigade army ( leadership, coc, etc), so not the whole front that's the problem.

How about clear weather and no sov bonus for the axis 41 offensive.



Dinglir -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/20/2016 5:16:21 PM)

Reserve units are set up for rapid movement to a point of crisis. Hence they are concentrated and should be:

1) Unable to dig very much (heavy negative modifier)
2) Vulnerable to ground bombing and artillery attacks
3) Vulnerable to attack if enemy ground units reach the setup areas

They should also spend movement (I thought they already did) to reach any combat they get involved in.

Of course, this is a view based on the historical facts rather than playability in the game.



Icier -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/20/2016 9:41:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

Reserve units are set up for rapid movement to a point of crisis. Hence they are concentrated and should be:

1) Unable to dig very much (heavy negative modifier)
2) Vulnerable to ground bombing and artillery attacks
3) Vulnerable to attack if enemy ground units reach the setup areas

They should also spend movement (I thought they already did) to reach any combat they get involved in.




This is probably the most reasonable & historically the closest, but then we come back to whether
the "fix" just doesnt cause further problems..I am starting to believe that the structure of the
game is so poor that a fix here will "rebound" later.



Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/21/2016 1:00:35 AM)

I think it would help balance a lot if the defender paid the full mp price to move both ways and the cost of a deliberate attack. Keeping them from digging would also be justified. After that there doesn't need to be any further malus. These two adjustments are definitely common sense and would only touch up a weak area without affecting balance too much. If the defender puts all rear units on reserve then none of them dig, refit, and if they get used they burn up their mp's and fatigue. Sounds like a solid adjustment to me.



morvael -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/21/2016 5:44:06 AM)

This gives three ways to stop enemy - normal troops dig, troops on refit are strong, troops on reserve help to hold the line. I like it, it should made lines easier to penetrate, especially German as they can't afford too many troops in the rear. One more way to allow maneuver warfare instead of trench war.



morvael -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (9/21/2016 9:48:34 PM)

It turns out the cost in MP is variable and not a simple movement cost (there and back again plus battle). Many factors are involved and some factors can reduce the cost significantly. The cost is printed at the end of the "is committed to the defense" or "is committed to the attack" message. I think I will not touch this at this point, so for now I will go with reduction of construction points for units in reserve and on refit.

edit: turns out unit on refit were already penalized, they had %TOE construction points.



Cavalry Corp -> RE: Ideas on countering reserves? (10/18/2016 4:22:06 PM)

I think that's good. Units in reserve in this game are just that - ready for a pending battle not strung out digging in also units in refit are reorganising and resting and taking leave, repairing stuff and so on so that is already covered. The idea to reduce their dig in capacity seems sensible and realistic.



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