Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (Full Version)

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Anthropoid -> Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/21/2016 7:42:20 PM)

Got back into Kerbal Space Program (KSP) after three years earlier this year. I was surprised to realize that Scott Manley is still actively doing "Lets Plays" and various commentary videos, and still a lot of KSP type videos. Not sure how Scott makes his living, but he clearly has put a lot of time into his Youtubes and I would think that Squad (the Mexico City based publisher of KSP) are quite 'appreciative' of his Youtubes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DMcFhmnsys

That link is just one recent example. He's got hundreds of videos on his "channel" and quite a few are interesting if not educational.

So if nothing else, this thread may inform some of you about: (a) an interesting game; (b) an interesting "game-culture" phenomenon that is rather absent from WitP community and strategic war games in general; (c) a specific individual who is an interesting study of gamer identity.

Beyond that, the discussion I'd like to encourage is: would a "Scott Manley sort of figure ever be possible for a game like WitP? Or does the nature of the game just preclude that?"

Consider that: in recent years, computer games dealing with WWII era have multiplied, so there clearly is no lack of interest in the subject area.



Mundy -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/21/2016 7:47:32 PM)

That game is very addictive.

I've stuck to science only campaigns. The thought of dealing with actual money scares me.



Anthropoid -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/21/2016 7:58:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

That game is very addictive.

I've stuck to science only campaigns. The thought of dealing with actual money scares me.


True. The thing that has saved me: I like to mod it till it breaks. Seems the way C# (or unity engine anyway) handles plugins is less than ideal though. Performance degrades pretty badly beyond about 50 plugins.

So I play it, mod it, play it, mod it, enjoy the extra bells and whistles, add more mods, performance degrades, but boy do I enjoy those additional parts/features/functionalities . . . and then a threshold is reached: game is too heavily modded and performance has dropped into 'unfun' ballpark, but taking out mods and trying to play it more vanilla is not really an option. So I just stop playing it! [:D]



Schorsch -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/21/2016 8:05:48 PM)

the reason is, you dont get enough views for a game that takes literally years to play through one campaign. the viewer base is to low to make so much work worth.the avg videois about 20-30mins for a lets play, because thats the sweetspot between length of time to upload the video and attentionspan of an avg viewer for a video. 20-30mins are not even enough to show 1 day of this game.



Lokasenna -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/21/2016 9:13:36 PM)

Because it would take forever to make the videos, basically. You'd have to stop/start the video or splice videos together to encompass multiple days.

There was this Operation Glacier duo of dudes and one of them was doing videos, I think? Don't know if he stuck with it.

Also, if doing PBEMs.... OpSec concerns.


I've thought of doing a video-based AAR as watching (perhaps highlights only) the combat replay instead of posting about it might be more useful to convey information, but it would be somewhat tedious to show all the things I'm doing as I do it (I use multiple screens, and showing the Tracker that I'm looking at would be helpful...and would slow me down). Plus, there's the time factor. Just don't have the time.



Anthropoid -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/21/2016 9:46:02 PM)

Totally agree that the nature of the game does seem a bit more "challenging" to make good Let's Plays.

But, that said: the game is obviously "addictive." The trick is to make videos that capture that addictive quality, and yes, lots of stop/starting would seem to be required . . . but then that is true for ANY well-done Youtube I'd say. WitPAE might well require MORE than some other games, but I don't think the fact you couldn't just start playing the game and commentate without any planned scripts, out-takes, time jumps, etc. is unique to WitPAE. The same is true of many strategy games.

There is a career mode in KSP now, which has _some_ characteristics that overlap with a strategy game. If Scott Manley were to approach making Lets Plays of KSP the way we might tend to approach Lets Plays of WitPAE, i.e., launch the game, launch the recorder and start commentating as you play with no pre-conceived notion of a script or how to edit to achieve an engrossing final product: I think his Lets Plays would be extremely unpopular.

However, KSP did not always have a career mode: it was not born as a strategy game, but as a rocket physics simulator with some fun cartoonish little green people who enjoy explosions. Manley initially achieved a following by simply doing very brief "how tos" to help new players understand how to make ANY progress with the game at all (the learning curve cannot compare to WitPAE, but it is pretty dang steep; most players spend many hours failing to even get a rocket a few thousand meters up let alone in orbit!). I don't know if he has ever really done a "career mode" playthrough, or if anyone really has.

I think the thing that has given Manley a following is that he is not just some babbling talking head like so many "gamer Youtubers;" he is an intelligent adult who also enjoys good games and has a good sense of humor. He also is IIRC, a Ph.D. in astronomy or something along those lines, so he knows a lot about the real world subject matter that KSP represents. There must be some analagous folks in this community: not full of themselves, reasonable sense of humor, enjoy making Youtubes, somewhat charismatic, very knowledgeable about the subject matter (the Pacific War and/or WWII military science/history in general). Its not like Scott Manley is superstar material: he is pretty homely and goofy.

Not my bag personally, but maybe one of you lot fit the bill (thinks of a particular Greenskinned bug eyed and prolific forumite who promises to be swuft and mursufuhl . . .)?

The other thing to keep in mind: there are smaller scenarios for WitPAE, many of which could be covered in some detail in a dozen or so videos = a reasonable "sounding board" to see what sort of interest there was.

But yeah, if you just sit down and start talking while you play = destined to flop. There needs to a "script" that centers on the small number of themes to be addressed within an episode, from which a "screen play(?)" is adapted (is that what they call the script + all the cinematic/editing steps??), and then the Youtuber would need to have a reasonable quirky charm of some sort and have fun doing the videos.



Jim D Burns -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 12:54:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
Not sure how Scott makes his living,


Youtube can actually be quite a lucrative career if you get enough viewers. Lots of folks are pulling in millions a year, but most are probably just making a decent living and only hoping to get rich some day. If he posts a ton of videos my guess is his day job is youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zH4JU5jfTs

Jim



Anthropoid -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 2:45:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
Not sure how Scott makes his living,


Youtube can actually be quite a lucrative career if you get enough viewers. Lots of folks are pulling in millions a year, but most are probably just making a decent living and only hoping to get rich some day. If he posts a ton of videos my guess is his day job is youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zH4JU5jfTs

Jim



Holy crap. What the hell am I doing posting on here and not building a multi-million dollar Youtube channel doing Let's Plays!?

Course . . . for every PiewDuPoo multi-millionaires, there are likely 10,000 PooPooDuu zeronaires . . .



Chris21wen -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 8:21:29 AM)

Whoose Scott Manley?



chemkid -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 9:26:57 AM)

.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 12:15:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
Not sure how Scott makes his living,


Youtube can actually be quite a lucrative career if you get enough viewers. Lots of folks are pulling in millions a year, but most are probably just making a decent living and only hoping to get rich some day. If he posts a ton of videos my guess is his day job is youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zH4JU5jfTs

Jim



His day job is Apple. I looked at his LinkedIn and he's had a number of IT industry jobs going back to Napster. Before that he was an astronomer; five years into his Ph.D. before being seduced by Silicon Valley.

This is a very old bio from the Observatory, but useful:

"Umm OK....

When I wrote this I was at Armagh Observatory working towards a PhD in the field of small bodies in the Solar system. However this ended when I was poached by the internet business and ended up working in California for companies like Napster and imeem, you can check out my personal page at djsnm.com. Prior to my time at Armagh I gained a degree in Astronomy and Physics from the University of Glasgow and a Masters Degree in IT and Computational Physics, again from Glasgow.

Outside of astronomy I mess around a great deal with computers, programming neat gadgets which may or may not be useful, making movies of numerical simulations using POV-Ray and lots of CPU time. I'm a part time DJ in and around the clubs of the San Francisco Bay area, and I've been known to produce the odd record."

He has over 1500 YouTube videos, so he probably makes some dough there, but he's incredibly prolific all over the Net in multiple places for multiple reasons.

He's the reason I got into KSP. Without his videos I'd still be on the pad. It's rare that someone with advanced technical skills is also a great teacher, but he's both.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 12:20:23 PM)

The link to one of his videos you posted is fine, but he has much better vids that are pure teaching without all the kibitzing with on-line viewers. He has done several multiple-episode tutorial series on career mode at several places in the game's development. Those go step-by-step, are informative while also being funny, and yes, they are well-edited and take time to prepare.

That said, I agree with others that AE does not lend itself to videos. KSP is a graphics and aural experience. AE is a thinking and reading one.

This is a link to the first episode of 33 in a tutorial series. It is for a version of the game about two years old now--so the game has a lot of new stuff--but it's one of the best video tutorials I've ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d74m3qThOoU&list=PLYu7z3I8tdEkUeJRCh083UT-Lq5ZIKI75



mind_messing -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 1:21:57 PM)

quote:

That said, I agree with others that AE does not lend itself to videos. KSP is a graphics and aural experience. AE is a thinking and reading one


Didn't realize you were a KSP fan Bull; it's taught me all about how orbital mechanics are hard. Got to the Mun, but not played it for years.

As for AE on YouTube, I agree that it's just not the type of game that lends itself well to viewing. How do you format videos? Show the replay, then the orders (editing out the long and boring clickfest), but have to wait till the next video for to see how things transpire?

I've hummed and hawed, but I'd think that live streaming a game session would be the best medium. Failing that, a video covering a particular theatre over a campaign might be best - three five/ten minute segment on SWPAC for example, with the opening of the campaign, the conduct of the campaign and the ending.

I might look in to getting a live-stream for AE set up. We'll see, doubt I'll have much time, but we'll see.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 2:05:56 PM)

You should take another look at KSP. They've upgraded to a 64-bit physics engine, so large numbers of parts are possible. They're in a public beta phase now for a huge upgrade that adds buildable satellite comm networks system-wide, as well as dozens of tweaks, plus new parts packages.

Re AE, I guess the biggest issue for me is the time factor. You can fly a KSP mission in at most a couple of hours with time compression. Most are under thirty minutes. In AE even a one-day turn's movie can take 45 minutes in the late-war. The order entry takes longer, but most of what's "happening" is in the player's head, not on the screen.

I suppose you could make a vid showing a one-day process, and some people might sit through it, once. But every day? If you have that kind of time and you have that kind of interest in the subject, you ought to just get the game and play it.



JocMeister -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 2:17:12 PM)

Hmmm, Might restart my KSP career...

I went to the moon and some other planet. Canīt remember the name now? But it kind of lacked stuff to do. You went there and that was it. No purpose really rather then go there. Have they added more stuff?



Canoerebel -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 2:35:20 PM)

That was my impression while watching the video for about 15 minutes: "Why? Why do this?"



mind_messing -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 2:51:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

You should take another look at KSP. They've upgraded to a 64-bit physics engine, so large numbers of parts are possible. They're in a public beta phase now for a huge upgrade that adds buildable satellite comm networks system-wide, as well as dozens of tweaks, plus new parts packages.

Re AE, I guess the biggest issue for me is the time factor. You can fly a KSP mission in at most a couple of hours with time compression. Most are under thirty minutes. In AE even a one-day turn's movie can take 45 minutes in the late-war. The order entry takes longer, but most of what's "happening" is in the player's head, not on the screen.

I suppose you could make a vid showing a one-day process, and some people might sit through it, once. But every day? If you have that kind of time and you have that kind of interest in the subject, you ought to just get the game and play it.


Yeah, might do. It will need to compete with Aurora 4x at present though for my space fix. Currently dipped my toe back in again, but keep getting stumped trying to design a Sol-bound survey ship let alone any of the complex stuff.

IDK. If I was to record AE for the purpose of vids, I'd probably do either week or month long sections. Enough compression to see some progress but not to much that you miss the important details. At the end of the day, the majority of AE turns are turns where you're waiting for something to happen. Maybe...maybe...




Anthropoid -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 6:45:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

The link to one of his videos you posted is fine, but he has much better vids that are pure teaching without all the kibitzing with on-line viewers. He has done several multiple-episode tutorial series on career mode at several places in the game's development. Those go step-by-step, are informative while also being funny, and yes, they are well-edited and take time to prepare.

That said, I agree with others that AE does not lend itself to videos. KSP is a graphics and aural experience. AE is a thinking and reading one.

This is a link to the first episode of 33 in a tutorial series. It is for a version of the game about two years old now--so the game has a lot of new stuff--but it's one of the best video tutorials I've ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d74m3qThOoU&list=PLYu7z3I8tdEkUeJRCh083UT-Lq5ZIKI75


Very Cool! Thanks for joining in BW! [:)]

I agree he has lots better videos than that one I linked to. I just happened to be surfing and Youtube recommended that one for some reason. It struck me how "in his element" this guy was, you can tell it was originally a Livestream and he had "fans" responding as he did his video.

So here is this fine fellow, in all his intelligent quirkiness, sipping his beer and playing a game at the end of his day . . . kids are asleep and wife is smirking about hubbin's doin' his internet thing again . . . while his adoring fans look on fondly and watch him blow up rockets.

It just struck at that moment as I skim-watched the first 10 minutes of that specific video "WHY!? is there 'No Scott Manley' of War in the Pacific??" or perhaps even a "Scott Manley of Matrix/Slitherine-esque strategic war games more generally??

Like I said, not my bag, but maybe someone will be inspired.

ADDIT: Not sure it would ever be possible to do "fun" and popular Let's Play type videos of AE. But I suspect it would be; after all, the game IS addictive, and no, I don't think there is anything 'special' about those of us who can get into it, apart from patience. Patience is something everyone has to some degree and which can be enhanced in ideal circumstances.

The video that BW linked is a good example. As Scott said, he is going to "distill it down" into a simple series of steps that get the 'student' progressing through the material. Just enough commentary on the UI to help the beginner find his/her way to some key waypoints (intersections where the user can come back and explore more after class . . . erm, after watching the video), a self-deprecating and fun-loving tone, masterful explanations that reduce complex things to simple terms . . . and in one quick video, just enough content to pique someone's interest and help them to get going.

IMO, that is exactly what would need to happen with a WitPAE Let's Play: get through turn one of the simplest scenario in the stock pack (or maybe even use an even simpler one). Indeed, an even simpler scenario that essentially just represents ONE engagement might even be better.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 8:58:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Hmmm, Might restart my KSP career...

I went to the moon and some other planet. Canīt remember the name now? But it kind of lacked stuff to do. You went there and that was it. No purpose really rather then go there. Have they added more stuff?


Yes and no. It's primarily a design-ships-and-get-somewhere simulator. It's about the physics. It's not Civ-in-Space. There are a lot of mods that let you build bases and stations, but I haven't played with them. They added the ability to drill for fuel and process it, then do orbital refueling for outer system runs. As I said they are adding comm networks where you'll have to design proper relays with proper power and antennae and place them in orbits that aren't obscured by bodies, or else can jump--relay around the body. And if you haven't been to every planet and moon there's a lot left to do, including designing rovers and taking them along to joy-ride.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 8:59:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That was my impression while watching the video for about 15 minutes: "Why? Why do this?"


Go watch parts 14-16. [:'(]



Lokasenna -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 9:49:42 PM)

Here's how I'd do it.

Start up screencap software. Size my Tracker window such that it will fit within the resolution of the video.

Load up and run replay, pausing to enter password/etc. I've done this bit before, when I was showing the multiple reactions of CV TFs as it really wasn't possible to show exactly what was happening during the replay without showing the replay.

Judicious use of the pause functionality in the replay, especially when explaining or giving commentary on what's happening. Notably, for plans.

Playing against the AI would eliminate any OpSec concerns with sharing videos (as commentary would of necessity involve some mention of long-term plans), as well as potential pacing issues. I actually have an AI-vs-AI game that I could load up and pretty quickly put together some videos on that.


If someone were to put together videos for this, what would it look like? What topics should be covered? I can think of a few:


    Setting up for a CV battle
    Setting up air units for coordination
    Setting up convoys
    Some general gameplay, including but probably not limited to: ASW explainers, supply/logistics explainers, lots of "today we're going to cover this button and its consequences" (think of the Stockpiling feature...), land combat, general grand campaign concerns, etc.
    An "AAR" of short scenario(s)?



PS - why does the "list" button on this forum just not work/do anything? That's annoying.



Mundy -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 9:49:49 PM)

MechJeb is the only mod I've used. Pretty indispensable for me.



Anthropoid -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 10:54:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Hmmm, Might restart my KSP career...

I went to the moon and some other planet. Canīt remember the name now? But it kind of lacked stuff to do. You went there and that was it. No purpose really rather then go there. Have they added more stuff?


Yes and no. It's primarily a design-ships-and-get-somewhere simulator. It's about the physics. It's not Civ-in-Space. There are a lot of mods that let you build bases and stations, but I haven't played with them. They added the ability to drill for fuel and process it, then do orbital refueling for outer system runs. As I said they are adding comm networks where you'll have to design proper relays with proper power and antennae and place them in orbits that aren't obscured by bodies, or else can jump--relay around the body. And if you haven't been to every planet and moon there's a lot left to do, including designing rovers and taking them along to joy-ride.




The original game was really just about playing with stuff and seeing how the physics works. But the career system changes that: you've got a tech tree to work your way through, in order to unlock the necessary tech to go farther and do more science, more exploration, more resource extraction, etc.

As I said, I play with a heavy mod set (65 or so mods) and other than 3 years ago when the game was version 0.21 (it is now 1.2) I have not played much vanilla.

There is so much to do even in the stock game, very few players ever exhaust all of the possibilities and with mods the possibilities are nearly infinite.

I have a few mods that add additional solar systems, expand the tech tree by a factor of 2 or 3, add in faster than light alcubierre engines toward the end, allow for colonization and extensive base/mining/orbital ship building, etc., etc.

There are also a lot of mods that bring in military hardware . . . which I'm sure a lot of you WitP players might like . . . I have yet to explore them.

There is a mod called "Firespitter Airplanes" or something along those lines which adds a bunch of WWII era airplanes, biplanes . . . another one that adds large ships (carriers, subs, destroyers, etc., etc.)



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 11:20:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

MechJeb is the only mod I've used. Pretty indispensable for me.


Me too. There's no version out for the new beta, so I'm feeling crippled. I'm not much of a natural pilot. I like the design part.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/22/2016 11:26:50 PM)

All I play is career.

I used to have about a dozen mods, mostly enviro, sound, and interface stuff. But the upgrades kept breaking them and the mod updates were never in parallel. Some were, some weren't. Then another upgrade. After awhile I just dumped, re-loaded a clean game, and just used MechJeb. That dev is like a machine about new versions.

I've played the early career a dozen times, re-starting with every upgrade. At this point I know how to optimize money and science, but I still try to do things cheaper, and with fewer parts than last time.



RFalvo69 -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/23/2016 2:45:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Beyond that, the discussion I'd like to encourage is: would a "Scott Manley sort of figure ever be possible for a game like WitP? Or does the nature of the game just preclude that?"


Try this channel: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCddXNp2g4cNYJg5OBBCfRqLFYbqiaNzQ

The first video is a full AAR of the "Battle of the Marianas scenario". The second one is a TEN HOURS ( [X(] ) video about the Allies first move in the grand campaign. The other videos are the GC played with one day turns - a video for every turn. The playlist is now at Jan, 26th 1942.

I don't know if this guy will be so crazy to actually post videos for YEARS. Fact is: I'm learning things I didn't even know they were in the game. Each minute is packed with infos. And the commentary is often hilarious. [:D] Check it.



Anthropoid -> RE: Why No "Scott Manley of WitP?" (9/23/2016 11:52:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Beyond that, the discussion I'd like to encourage is: would a "Scott Manley sort of figure ever be possible for a game like WitP? Or does the nature of the game just preclude that?"


Try this channel: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCddXNp2g4cNYJg5OBBCfRqLFYbqiaNzQ

The first video is a full AAR of the "Battle of the Marianas scenario". The second one is a TEN HOURS ( [X(] ) video about the Allies first move in the grand campaign. The other videos are the GC played with one day turns - a video for every turn. The playlist is now at Jan, 26th 1942.

I don't know if this guy will be so crazy to actually post videos for YEARS. Fact is: I'm learning things I didn't even know they were in the game. Each minute is packed with infos. And the commentary is often hilarious. [:D] Check it.


Yes, I've watched a few of that fellows videos, so there is at least one example of someone who is getting some hits from WitPAE Let's Plays.

Just to be clear though: I wasn't really posing the question of this thread for my own benefit or interests. I don't watch Let's Plays, and while I find Scott Manley to be one of the more accomplished gamer Youtubers, I don't find him generally more entertaining that other things I could be doing. I've probably watched 10 of his videos and found about 6 of them to be quite good. To his credit, when I first started playing KSP, HIS videos were by far the best "how to get started."

Mainly, I just wanted to put the idea out there into this community.

As for HarPlonk, I have very little if any recollection of watching any of his videos, yet when I click on his channel, about the first 10 are marked as "Watched;" so I guess I have to say, I find his stuff to be even less engrossing than Manley's! [:D]



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