what replaced the RF-4C? (Full Version)

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Meiktila -> what replaced the RF-4C? (9/22/2016 11:13:09 AM)

Is there a late 80s, 90s replacement/upgrade for the RF-4C?

The F/A-18D ATARS seems to be only post 2000 and I can't find anything else. The Dutch have an Orpheus recon pod on an F-16, mid-80s I think.




Mini_Von -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/22/2016 12:28:01 PM)

Good question. My guess for the U.S. would be the U-2 in the 90's, but I am not sure.



Gunner98 -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/22/2016 1:08:38 PM)

quote:

Is there a late 80s, 90s replacement/upgrade for the RF-4C?


The end of the Cold War budget reductions!

The F-16 block 50/52 CJ and now it think its the CG are the best at SEAD but they really focus on the strike aspect and not the suppression with jamming - hence the modern evolution of SEAD (Suppression of Enemy AD) to DEAD (Destruction of Enemy AD). The Tornado ECR, especially the Italian upgraded version is quite capable as well.

The USAF has formed a joint Sqn with the USN with F/A-18G to handle the attack jamming - the wiki is a bit skimpy but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/390th_Electronic_Combat_Squadron

But the real answer is that the USAF has sacrifices the specialty to maintain the multi mission F-16, same reason they would like to get rid of the A-10 and have wanted to for decades. I think the policy makes sense to 'big airforce' but its a classic 'Jack of all trades' scenario.

B



SeaQueen -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/22/2016 1:43:27 PM)

Combination of recce pods, improved satellite coverage, aircraft with long range synthetic aperture radars, and unmanned aerial vehicles. These days I'd guess that UAVs would be preferred. SAR is neat because you can generate a photo quality image using radar instead of visible light, and penetrate clouds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Meiktila

Is there a late 80s, 90s replacement/upgrade for the RF-4C?

The F/A-18D ATARS seems to be only post 2000 and I can't find anything else. The Dutch have an Orpheus recon pod on an F-16, mid-80s I think.






Rory Noonan -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/22/2016 2:02:13 PM)

Google?

Joking obviously, but with the easy availability of recent satint for private citizens I'd imagine the military have satellite data in great supply. Drones are another new technology that fills in for manned flight.

In the interim the miniaturisation of cameras allowed smaller more agile aircraft to take on the recce mission via pod.



Gunner98 -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/22/2016 2:04:38 PM)

Doh! I had a great answer for the wrong question![:'(] I read F-4G Wild Weasel not recce - my bad.

I think SeaQueen nailed it.

B




Rory Noonan -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/22/2016 2:17:20 PM)

The purpose of recon flights has also changed. In the last 20 years the need for aerial photography has diminished because of the proliferation of other technologies for map-making---previously a chief mission for recon aircraft would be imaging for cartography.



xwraith -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/22/2016 2:34:37 PM)

F-14 with a TARPS pod might work post-2000



thewood1 -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/22/2016 2:50:27 PM)

I would think drones perform most of that function today.



Gunner98 -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/22/2016 3:27:57 PM)

I think the answer is actually closer to 'All of the Above' UAV's have got some advantages but also some disadvantages, they are ideal for a permissive COIN environment. The overriding principle of ISTAR is multiple sensors, of different types and hopefully different environments (where space comes in). In COIN you've also got Aerostats which are fantastic, but some properly positioned people also achieve a supporting effect with the right tools as well.

B



deepdive -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/24/2016 1:29:54 PM)

Pity that the devs didnt do all those recce pods for all NATO ac that was capable to carry them in the DB3K.

All NATO F-16A/B/C/D and later mods are capable of carrying recce pods, British Phantoms FGR2 are capable, even thou they stopped the training, they would use them as such in crisis or wartime. Tornados of all types could and used to carry them and still does. NATO Starfighters, Freedomfighters, Buccaners, Harriers and Jaguars could carry recce and elint pods, even thou it was specific airfames within squadrons that was capable as such. USN Tomcats had specific airframes capable of carrying the TARPS Pod, those airframes could not carry targeting pods.

NATO Orions, Nimrods and Atlantics could carry recce/Elint pods.



thewood1 -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/24/2016 2:00:13 PM)

Did anyone request them in the the database thread and provide any info? 'tis a pity.



Gunner98 -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/24/2016 2:21:42 PM)

At least a few of the ones you mention are already in the DB, I'm sure if you ask and can prove a specific configuration - it's only an update away. The Devs have been quite responsive to this type of request. I could imagine that the hundreds of possible combinations out there would take quite a while to research and that's probably why its not universally applied.

In general though a targeting pod in itself is not a silver bullet. You need the maintenance and technical support, upgrades to aircraft might mean the pod is no longer usable unless more $$ is thrown at it. Also the intelligence system behind the pod needs the depth and image analysts to process the info. Today's fixation with 'Pred Porn' in command centers would not survive in anything but a COIN environment so it will be the background intelligence system who do most of the data sifting, and there is only so much capacity. So older pods may still exist in an inventory, but it's not always a case of 'strap on and use' for a direct feed.

B



mikmykWS -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/24/2016 5:18:41 PM)

Yeah if you've got details on the pods and systems please do post to the DB strings. We can't just add a generic pod that does 50 different possible things in this case.

Thanks!

Mike




Meiktila -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/24/2016 8:22:38 PM)

it is a real shame that they're absent - I would use them for sure. I don't know if it is a metagame thing, but I find my ability to operate is greatly enhanced with dedicated recce birds around. Drones are too slow and sitting ducks and they die quick in heavy SAM/AAW environments. It is strange that the Orpheus recon pod for the Dutch f-16a is in game (1986?), but IIRC it is the only one. Having a recce loadout for even just the aircraft that deepdive mentions would be great.



mikmykWS -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/24/2016 8:28:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Meiktila

it is a real shame that they're absent - I would use them for sure. I don't know if it is a metagame thing, but I find my ability to operate is greatly enhanced with dedicated recce birds around. Drones are too slow and sitting ducks and they die quick in heavy SAM/AAW environments. It is strange that the Orpheus recon pod for the Dutch f-16a is in game (1986?), but IIRC it is the only one. Having a recce loadout for even just the aircraft that deepdive mentions would be great.


NEED DATA. DOES THAT COMPUTE

[:)]

Thanks!

Mike



thewood1 -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/24/2016 8:46:34 PM)

It's a pity and a shame. Game over, man! Game over! No more quarters! It's broken.



thewood1 -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/24/2016 9:13:17 PM)

What recon pods do NATO standard F-16s carry. I thought none of those entered service in NATO. My understanding is less than 20 NL F-16s had the interface to carry the Orpheus pod and only a few pods were delivered.

I am also curious how people are planning on using wet cameras, or even older digital cameras, when a plane has to bring film/data back and it takes hours to process. Newer pods might have a chance to deliver tactically timely info, but even that has issues. Even the TARS pod required a download from a returned plane until 2009. Its only around 2009 that high-speed download links were fast enough and reliable enough to be used for hi-rez images at the tactical-level. And even the DL-capable pods require some fairly significant downlink infrastructure to operate effectively.



Meiktila -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/25/2016 1:36:55 PM)

IRL and in-game are obviously different things. For me personally, in-game, having a recce loaded bird around for ABR and after strike snooping/updating is the best way to get myself, playing the game, the most accurate information. I think the game currently models it well. F-35s are brilliant at it without anything but in the period 1985-2000s using F-16s, F-15s, F-14s, Tornados and F/A-18s there are no loadout options until the ATARS 18D shows up. It could be thewood is right there were none, but deepdive stated otherwise.

Like Mike says (shouts?), who has the data? Not me, that's for sure. I don't generally ask questions I can answer myself. Hopefully someone can help out or clarify things.



thewood1 -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/25/2016 2:35:24 PM)

There are generic camera, sensor, and recon pods in game. You can add those to custom loadouts. So my question remains, why do you need a specific recon platform? What are you going to do with them? I don't understand how you can ask for something you know very little about and then not want to do the research on it. You state a number of platforms there, just list them out and the pods.

If realism is driving you, I don't understand why you need a specific recon pod available in standard loadouts.



mikmykWS -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/25/2016 2:58:32 PM)

There are a ton of assets in the DB currently from RF-4's, U-2's etc. As you move into the pod era (sniper, litening etc) you have reconnaissance capabilities built in to most aircraft loadouts.

Mike



thewood1 -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/25/2016 3:26:50 PM)

Also, just checked F-14 and TARPS is available. F-15E has all kinds of FLIR/Optical/Ground radar available in the DB. F-18 has ATARS and LANTIRN is avialble for many US aircraft. I know the Tornado has the TIALD (meant to sat RAPTOR pod also) available as well. So what's missing?



thewood1 -> RE: what replaced the RF-4C? (9/25/2016 3:57:27 PM)

I'm missing something here. I have found recon and recon pod versions of a number of the aircraft people are complaining about. Did you guys look? Or is this myth and legend.



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