AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (Full Version)

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Rafid -> AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/27/2016 9:45:17 AM)

I have encountered an 'I-don't-understand-this'.

First of all: I run stock scenario 1 from the latest official patch and one (but not the most recent) of the unofficial betas (1.7.11.259 from Jan 10th 2016).

Edit 9/30/16: My original explanation obviously wasn't very good. There is an additional picture for explanation in post 20.

I'm in April 1943 and wanted to upgrade AIF combat engineers to their 43 version. I have the 1st and 2nd Aus Inf Div which share the same TOE without any combat engineers, but both have 8 combat engineers since the beginning of the scenario. In the first turn of doing this the 2nd upgrades from AIF CE to AIF CE 43 the 1st does nothing (which is ok, there are limited AIF CE 43s). After the second turn the 1st doesn't have any combat engineers anymore. Looking at the pools, the 1st has upgraded and returned the AIF CE 43 to the pool immediately. Tracker confirms this: they are not lost, all total numbers match and the according to the tracker LCU screen the 1st Inf Div upgraded 0 AIF CE 43.

My questions are: What does these two units behave differently? What is supposed to happen? Is there a way to activate one of these two behaviours on purpose?

Thanks in advance!



BBfanboy -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/27/2016 4:03:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rafid

I have encountered an 'I-don't-understand-this'.

First of all: I run stock scenario 1 from the latest official patch and one (but not the most recent) of the unofficial betas (1.7.11.259 from Jan 10th 2016).

I'm in April 1943 and wanted to upgrade AIF combat engineers to their 43 version. I have the 1st and 2nd Aus Inf Div which share the same TOE without any combat engineers, but both have 8 combat engineers since the beginning of the scenario. In the first turn of doing this the 2nd upgrades from AIF CE to AIF CE 43 the 1st does nothing (which is ok, there are limited AIF CE 43s). After the second turn the 1st doesn't have any combat engineers anymore. Looking at the pools, the 1st has upgraded and returned the AIF CE 43 to the pool immediately. Tracker confirms this: they are not lost, all total numbers match and the according to the tracker LCU screen the 1st Inf Div upgraded 0 AIF CE 43.

My questions are: What does these two units behave differently? What is supposed to happen? Is there a way to activate one of these two behaviours on purpose?

Thanks in advance!

Not sure I have all the data right without screenshots, but it looks like:

- at game start the TOE does not show any engineers authorized, but both units have some attached anyway
- when the TOE upgrade came along, 2nd Division did upgrade TOE but 1st division did not. The TOE upgrade is necessary before any device upgrade that is not in the original TOE.
- 2nd Division's eight 'extra' engineer squads that were in the original unit complement were converted to the 43 version and if the 43 TOE authorized more than eight it began taking some from the pools.
- 1st Division did not yet upgrade the TOE, therefore it is still on the original TOE which did not authorize engineers so they were withdrawn to the pools.
- the engineers that were withdrawn to the pools upgraded to the 43 version in preparation for reallocation whenever a unit gets the 43 TOE.



BBfanboy -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/27/2016 4:09:21 PM)

edit - accidental double post



Rafid -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/28/2016 8:26:24 AM)

Almost BBfanboy:
There are not TOE Upgrades involved and none are available - it is a device upgrade. Hence the TOE of both units never included combat engineers.

One unit upgrades the device and the other upgrades the device but returns it to the pool at the same time.
It's not a problematic issue in anyway, I just wish to understand it.



szmike -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/28/2016 8:44:15 AM)

If you set upgrade to on, it upgrades the TOE to current one even outside command HQ range. There are many cases where starting devices are different than TOE, after upgrade they will match (but not necessarily in quantity). In such case if TOE didn't have a device type it returns it to pool, after upgrading if it's a squad and upgrade is possible.

What you encountered seems weird though.



Chris21wen -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/28/2016 9:28:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rafid

I have encountered an 'I-don't-understand-this'.

First of all: I run stock scenario 1 from the latest official patch and one (but not the most recent) of the unofficial betas (1.7.11.259 from Jan 10th 2016).

I'm in April 1943 and wanted to upgrade AIF combat engineers to their 43 version. I have the 1st and 2nd Aus Inf Div which share the same TOE without any combat engineers, but both have 8 combat engineers since the beginning of the scenario. In the first turn of doing this the 2nd upgrades from AIF CE to AIF CE 43 the 1st does nothing (which is ok, there are limited AIF CE 43s). After the second turn the 1st doesn't have any combat engineers anymore. Looking at the pools, the 1st has upgraded and returned the AIF CE 43 to the pool immediately. Tracker confirms this: they are not lost, all total numbers match and the according to the tracker LCU screen the 1st Inf Div upgraded 0 AIF CE 43.

My questions are: What does these two units behave differently? What is supposed to happen? Is there a way to activate one of these two behaviours on purpose?

Thanks in advance!



Are you sure the old type didn't get upgraded and added to the same unit in the same turn.

I was upgrading a unit with 3 x old to 3 x 43 from the pool expecting too see 3 still in the pool. This did not happen. As the unit need 8 for a full compliment the three I expected to see in the pool were also added to the unit. E.g. I finished up with 6 x 43s and 0 in the pool. Oh! and for that matter 0 x old in the pool as well.



BBfanboy -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/28/2016 6:01:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rafid

I have encountered an 'I-don't-understand-this'.

First of all: I run stock scenario 1 from the latest official patch and one (but not the most recent) of the unofficial betas (1.7.11.259 from Jan 10th 2016).

I'm in April 1943 and wanted to upgrade AIF combat engineers to their 43 version. I have the 1st and 2nd Aus Inf Div which share the same TOE without any combat engineers, but both have 8 combat engineers since the beginning of the scenario. In the first turn of doing this the 2nd upgrades from AIF CE to AIF CE 43 the 1st does nothing (which is ok, there are limited AIF CE 43s). After the second turn the 1st doesn't have any combat engineers anymore. Looking at the pools, the 1st has upgraded and returned the AIF CE 43 to the pool immediately. Tracker confirms this: they are not lost, all total numbers match and the according to the tracker LCU screen the 1st Inf Div upgraded 0 AIF CE 43.

My questions are: What does these two units behave differently? What is supposed to happen? Is there a way to activate one of these two behaviours on purpose?

Thanks in advance!



Are you sure the old type didn't get upgraded and added to the same unit in the same turn.

I was upgrading a unit with 3 x old to 3 x 43 from the pool expecting too see 3 still in the pool. This did not happen. As the unit need 8 for a full compliment the three I expected to see in the pool were also added to the unit. E.g. I finished up with 6 x 43s and 0 in the pool. Oh! and for that matter 0 x old in the pool as well.

An upgrade of infantry/engineer squads involves changing the firepower/anti-soft/anti-armour settings to reflect the (behind the scenes) introduction of things like SMGs, Bazookas or PIATs, semi-automatic rifles, etc. The men in the squad are still the same so when 8 original inf. or eng. squads upgrade to the 1943 version they do so within the unit and the stats are changed to reflect their new capability. Those squads do not go back to the pools.

When the upgrade is available, there will be a monthly "production rate" that estimates how many squads would be able to get the new equipment. I think devices (in this case squads) already in units get first priority and after they are upgraded the version in the pools gets upgraded. No new squads have arrived, the old ones just changed their capability. The "production rate" for the original squads would define how many new squads can show up in the pools.

That is my understanding of how it works. Also note that a TOE upgrade IS necessary before a device upgrade (different from the original TOE) can happen so somewhere in the days preceding your device change the Op Report would have stated "Unit xxx" upgrades TOE to AIF 1943. The lag time between TOE and device upgrade is eaten up by accumulation of the necessary devices to replace the ones you have.

The unit that lost its engineer squads probably did so because the squads needed to upgrade to the 1943 version and that unit was not yet authorized by TOE to have 1943 engineer squads.

I think the index number of the unit (in the top left area of the unit screen) decides which units change TOE first.



szmike -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/28/2016 9:52:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

When the upgrade is available, there will be a monthly "production rate" that estimates how many squads would be able to get the new equipment. I think devices (in this case squads) already in units get first priority and after they are upgraded the version in the pools gets upgraded. No new squads have arrived, the old ones just changed their capability. The "production rate" for the original squads would define how many new squads can show up in the pools.


It's in the manual iirc (or maybe in patchnotes?). To upgrade a squad there must be enough new squads in the pool, so if you have 8 AIF Engineers in a unit, there has to be 8 AIF 43 Engineers in pool before the upgrade happens. Squads in pool go to unit, squads in unit go to pool and are instantly upgraded. The player then sees 8 AIF 43 Engineer squads in unit and 8 + whatever was produced that turn in pool. That's it.

quote:

Also note that a TOE upgrade IS necessary before a device upgrade (different from the original TOE) can happen so somewhere in the days preceding your device change the Op Report would have stated "Unit xxx" upgrades TOE to AIF 1943. The lag time between TOE and device upgrade is eaten up by accumulation of the necessary devices to replace the ones you have.


TOE upgrade is irrelevant to device upgrade. If new TOE has devices old TOE doesn't, it draws them to unit like replacements (if enabled). If new TOE doesn't have some devices old TOE does, then they may or may not go to pool. I don't quite know how it works and OPs case shows there may be other factors.

quote:

The unit that lost its engineer squads probably did so because the squads needed to upgrade to the 1943 version and that unit was not yet authorized by TOE to have 1943 engineer squads.

TOE of those units doesn't change. Those divisions are built up from brigades and battalions and retain their devices until upgrade is on at the least. I suspect the division which lost its squads was in range of command HQ and the one that didn't wasn't.



Rafid -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/29/2016 8:23:49 PM)

Thanks for all the replies and sorry for taking some time to get back to this. I was busy with work and wanted to recheck the game before posting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: szmike
TOE of those units doesn't change. Those divisions are built up from brigades and battalions and retain their devices until upgrade is on at the least. I suspect the division which lost its squads was in range of command HQ and the one that didn't wasn't.

This is all correct, including the suspicion about the command HQ. I was trying to find any difference between the two units. It never occurred to me to check for command HQs in range – thanks, but what made you have this suspicion?

As additional info, both units were in rest mode in very well supplied big bases (Darwin and Sydney) when the device upgrades happened. Before some people speculate about TOE upgrades again: There are no TOE upgrades for those units – ever!

Since I still have the saves from those turns, I might run some checks over the weekend, like trying to move the units in and out of command HQ range before upgrading.



BBfanboy -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 1:01:04 AM)

Apologies if you don't want further discussion but I am still fuzzy on some of what you are saying and I think you are fuzzy on where I am coming from. So here is a series of pics from the Editor that show what I was trying to get at (I will post them individually because I have not figured out how to combine them and when I asked once the question received no help):

First - The editor screen for Sydney which shows 1st Australian Div. starting there. As we know, the division is just a shell until the sub-units combine, but the picture gives us the unit number. The "0" after the unit name means its arrival date is not pre-set i.e. it is whenever you merge the units to fill out the Division.



[image]local://upfiles/35791/CD422B8C210947F79EF81B4CA28DC968.jpg[/image]



BBfanboy -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 1:02:26 AM)

Next we have the unit number referred to by the Sydney locations list:
Note the TOE ID 2687. I did not push the button to show device numbers 11-20 but it does show 6 Engineer squads and no Engineer vehicles.
Also note that the delay is set to "0" so the unit can come into existence from game start.



[image]local://upfiles/35791/A961DB3DEF7545E08D89D3D599E2AE53.jpg[/image]



BBfanboy -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 1:08:40 AM)

Next we go to index number 2687 - the indicated TOE for 1st Australian Division. It shows the same devices as the unit 6013. Note the 430101 Delay setting which I take to mean there will be an automatic upgrade in devices in this TOE on that date.

Apologies that you have to click on the attachment to see it - I tried to swap pictures and the second one came in as an attachment.







BBfanboy -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 1:17:37 AM)

Next I went looking for the 1943 version of the TOE and what I found was a repeat of index 2687 in slot 2705:

Note that it shows an upgrade of the TOE in the right hand side area, but TOE 2711 is a Jungle Militia TOE with CMF squads instead of AIF sqauds - not what we want.

[image]local://upfiles/35791/B06FDB34C6F04837AC6DB9DCFD2F6532.jpg[/image]



BBfanboy -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 1:25:04 AM)

And then I looked at the next TOE #2706 for the AIF division:
Note that the Delay is set to 420915 so you cannot get what the TOE provides before that date.
Also note that this one too can upgrade to 2710 Jungle TOE Div
What I am unclear about is how the unit TOE gets from 2705 to 2706 since that jump is not specified anywhere I could find.


[image]local://upfiles/35791/B28E5F9D49F04943BC222BE59266ED1B.jpg[/image]



BBfanboy -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 1:33:33 AM)

And now the same TOE 2706 showing the engineers/vehicles in slots 11 & 12.
The number of engineers went from 06 in TOE 2705 to 30 in TOE 2706. Engineer vehicles went from 0 to 03.
This is the stuff I meant about the Unit changing TOEs and that the TOEs provide for different equipment (like AIF squads vs CMF squads).

But I think I understand what some were saying that the devices upgrade, not the TOE, because AIF combat engineers become AIF 43 Combat Engineers at some point. Am I on the right wavelength here? [:)]



[image]local://upfiles/35791/E5CBF5AD9FCD4663B131810B1D94A417.jpg[/image]



BBfanboy -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 1:45:41 AM)

To illustrate the Combat Engineer upgrade:



[image]local://upfiles/35791/17E4521E16934388BE4BB498C58BF2EC.jpg[/image]



Alfred -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 4:29:20 AM)

This is not a bug and the discussion should not be conducted in the Tech sub-forum.

Read this thread on upgrades.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3604034&mpage=1&key=squad%2Cupgrade?

Alfred



Rafid -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 10:04:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Apologies if you don't want further discussion ...

Quite the opposite. Thank you for your input and your effort to understand me. I realize I was not very understandable in my original discription. I will post screenshots later to better show, what I am talking about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
But I think I understand what some were saying that the devices upgrade, not the TOE, because AIF combat engineers become AIF 43 Combat Engineers at some point. Am I on the right wavelength here? [:)]

Yes perfectly.

Concerning the different TOES you posted: As far as I know (and your screenshots confirm this) there are three different Australian infantary division TOE-Lines:
1. The TOE 2687 which is the one of importance here. It is used by the 1st and 2nd Inf Div. They never upgrade their TOE (note that "Upgrade TOE" has a 0)
2. The TOE 2705 which upgrades to 2711. It is used by the 3rd, 4th and 5th Inf Div.
3. The TOE 2706 which upgrades to 2710. It is used by the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Inf Div.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
What I am unclear about is how the unit TOE gets from 2705 to 2706 since that jump is not specified anywhere I could find.

It simply doesn't. It is three seperate lines used by different units. There is no jumping from one line to the next.



szmike -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 3:29:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rafid

quote:

ORIGINAL: szmike
TOE of those units doesn't change. Those divisions are built up from brigades and battalions and retain their devices until upgrade is on at the least. I suspect the division which lost its squads was in range of command HQ and the one that didn't wasn't.

This is all correct, including the suspicion about the command HQ. I was trying to find any difference between the two units. It never occurred to me to check for command HQs in range – thanks, but what made you have this suspicion?

As additional info, both units were in rest mode in very well supplied big bases (Darwin and Sydney) when the device upgrades happened. Before some people speculate about TOE upgrades again: There are no TOE upgrades for those units – ever!

Since I still have the saves from those turns, I might run some checks over the weekend, like trying to move the units in and out of command HQ range before upgrading.


Unit must be in rest mode and double the range of command HQ for TOE upgrades to happen. Even units without new TOE can sort of do this, they just tidy up differences. They send to pool devices not in their TOE if in double command HQ range (which I suspected until you confirmed).

In detail, if you want to retain those devices you have to either put them outside of double command range or better set them to combat mode, so they don't try to upgrade TOE.



BBfanboy -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 3:30:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rafid

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Apologies if you don't want further discussion ...

Quite the opposite. Thank you for your input and your effort to understand me. I realize I was not very understandable in my original discription. I will post screenshots later to better show, what I am talking about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
But I think I understand what some were saying that the devices upgrade, not the TOE, because AIF combat engineers become AIF 43 Combat Engineers at some point. Am I on the right wavelength here? [:)]

Yes perfectly.

Concerning the different TOES you posted: As far as I know (and your screenshots confirm this) there are three different Australian infantary division TOE-Lines:
1. The TOE 2687 which is the one of importance here. It is used by the 1st and 2nd Inf Div. They never upgrade their TOE (note that "Upgrade TOE" has a 0)
2. The TOE 2705 which upgrades to 2711. It is used by the 3rd, 4th and 5th Inf Div.
3. The TOE 2706 which upgrades to 2710. It is used by the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Inf Div.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
What I am unclear about is how the unit TOE gets from 2705 to 2706 since that jump is not specified anywhere I could find.

It simply doesn't. It is three seperate lines used by different units. There is no jumping from one line to the next.

I was not aware of the three separate TOE lines for Australian Divisions. That clears up a lot of my confusion, thanks! [sm=sign0031.gif]



Rafid -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 3:41:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

This is not a bug and the discussion should not be conducted in the Tech sub-forum.

Read this thread on upgrades.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3604034&mpage=1&key=squad%2Cupgrade?

Alfred

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong place. I honestly wasn't sure where to place this. If you say that an 'I-don't-understand-this' belongs in the general forum until it is decided whether or not it is a bug, I will do so in the future.

However, I read the full thread which you linked (and the one it links to in its last post) and I don't think it describes what I'm seeing - or only the half which I was already aware of.

Since my original description left a lot of people confused I compiled this screen:
[image]local://upfiles/50978/BF2AAA86B636406B88297F53C0A4DF83.jpg[/image]

In the first turn (501 to 502 in tracker) the Cmbt Eng of the 1st Division (top) upgraded exactly in the way I'm used to and that is described in the thread Alfred linked: Since it is a squad/engineer type device the number of Cmbt Eng 1943 in the pool is not reduced by the upgrade.
In the second turn (502 to 503) something happened to the 2nd division (bottom) which made it lose its 12 combat engineers. Looking at tracker (very bottom), they seem to have upgraded to 43 Version and gone to the pool. Unless I missed it, this second behavior is not covered in the thread and I have never seen it before.



Rafid -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 3:48:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: szmike
Unit must be in rest mode and double the range of command HQ for TOE upgrades to happen. Even units without new TOE can sort of do this, they just tidy up differences. They send to pool devices not in their TOE if in double command HQ range (which I suspected until you confirmed).

This must be it - I did not know this, thanks!
Do you know if it only happens during the device upgrade? That unit has been in range of command HQ for most of the game and in rest mode for quite some time.



szmike -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 4:01:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rafid

quote:

ORIGINAL: szmike
Unit must be in rest mode and double the range of command HQ for TOE upgrades to happen. Even units without new TOE can sort of do this, they just tidy up differences. They send to pool devices not in their TOE if in double command HQ range (which I suspected until you confirmed).

This must be it - I did not know this, thanks!
Do you know if it only happens during the device upgrade? That unit has been in range of command HQ for most of the game and in rest mode for quite some time.


Upgrade toggle works for both, but TOE upgrades happen when unit is in rest mode. Thus setting any other mode should prevent it.



witpqs -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 4:28:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rafid

quote:

ORIGINAL: szmike
Unit must be in rest mode and {within} double the range of command HQ for TOE upgrades to happen. Even units without new TOE can sort of do this, they just tidy up differences. They send to pool devices not in their TOE if in double command HQ range (which I suspected until you confirmed).

This must be it - I did not know this, thanks!
Do you know if it only happens during the device upgrade? That unit has been in range of command HQ for most of the game and in rest mode for quite some time.

In addition to what szmike mentioned, unit must also be in a friendly base for TOE upgrade.



Rafid -> RE: AIF Cmbt Eng Upgrade - and go to the pool (9/30/2016 5:08:03 PM)

Alright, Problem solved and I learned one more thing about each the game and the forum.

Thanks to everybody for all the effort!



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