Gen Pattons D Day plan (Full Version)

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mbishop -> Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/27/2016 4:19:47 PM)

While reading the thread on the Operation Sealion book, I remembered last week I was looking for something
to watch on TV and stumbled on to Patton (with George C Scott??) from a long time ago. It was the part where
he was just brought to London (1944?)and was shown his housing (the room with the mirrors on the ceiling &
pink walls/furnishings). He then met his superior and was told of 'Operation Overlord'. He then replied that
he had a much better plan for invading at Pas de Calais. Does anyone know where to find any more information
on this? A book perhaps?



Joe D. -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/27/2016 9:44:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mbishop

.... He then met his superior and was told of 'Operation Overlord'. He then replied that
he had a much better plan for invading at Pas de Calais. Does anyone know where to find any more information
on this? A book perhaps?


Wasn't that the strategic city of Caen -- the hub of the area's road network located on the River Orne -- not the Pas de Calais?



Ostwindflak -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/27/2016 11:19:36 PM)

mbishop is right. I actually just pulled Patton off the shelf last weekend and watched it again. That scene has Patton (George C. Scott) telling General Walter Bedell Smith his plan for Overlord because the current plan was "full of problems". He then suggests to show Gen. Smith his plan to invade at Pas de Calais to which he is told to "shut up" for a change.

I do not know of a book which details Patton's plan.



Joe D. -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/28/2016 12:02:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

mbishop is right. I actually just pulled Patton off the shelf last weekend and watched it again. That scene has Patton (George C. Scott) telling General Walter Bedell Smith his plan for Overlord because the current plan was "full of problems". He then suggests to show Gen. Smith his plan to invade at Pas de Calais to which he is told to "shut up" for a change.

I do not know of a book which details Patton's plan.


But wasn't Patton already aware that he and his "army" were a diversion to convince the German High Command of the false notion that the Allies were landing at Calais?



CaptBeefheart -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/28/2016 2:49:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

mbishop is right. I actually just pulled Patton off the shelf last weekend and watched it again. That scene has Patton (George C. Scott) telling General Walter Bedell Smith his plan for Overlord because the current plan was "full of problems". He then suggests to show Gen. Smith his plan to invade at Pas de Calais to which he is told to "shut up" for a change.

I do not know of a book which details Patton's plan.


But wasn't Patton already aware that he and his "army" were a diversion to convince the German High Command of the false notion that the Allies were landing at Calais?

I'm sure he was. This will be a shock to all, but Hollywood sometimes modifies the truth for dramatic effect, like having a P-40 pilot fly a B-25 off the Hornet in the movie that shall not be named.

Cheers,
CC



warspite1 -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/28/2016 6:35:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

mbishop is right. I actually just pulled Patton off the shelf last weekend and watched it again. That scene has Patton (George C. Scott) telling General Walter Bedell Smith his plan for Overlord because the current plan was "full of problems". He then suggests to show Gen. Smith his plan to invade at Pas de Calais to which he is told to "shut up" for a change.

I do not know of a book which details Patton's plan.


But wasn't Patton already aware that he and his "army" were a diversion to convince the German High Command of the false notion that the Allies were landing at Calais?

I'm sure he was. This will be a shock to all, but Hollywood sometimes modifies the truth for dramatic effect, like having a P-40 pilot fly a B-25 off the Hornet in the movie that shall not be named.

Cheers,
CC
warspite1

What!? You mean to tell us that that was not historically accurate? Aw man.....[sm=nono.gif]



Ostwindflak -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/28/2016 1:48:36 PM)

I'm not saying the Hollywood version in the movie is correct. I was just pointing out that mbishop was remembering it correctly.

From what I remember when I read Crusade in Europe by Dwight D. Eisenhower, Ike said that he intentionally kept Patton in the dark about his upcoming role in Overlord until the last possible moment because as we know, Patton had a habit of opening his mouth.



Chickenboy -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/28/2016 1:49:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak
I do not know of a book which details Patton's plan.


It's been years since I've read it, but does War as I knew it go into this at all?



Ostwindflak -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/28/2016 1:52:22 PM)

I have never read that book Chickenboy, but possibly. I'll put it on my list of books to buy, thanks for pointing it out.



MrsWargamer -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/28/2016 2:36:19 PM)

It's funny that Patton really did want to invade at the one place the Germans were so convinced he'd invade, because the Germans were incapable of perceiving that the allied leadership would actually 'bench' Patton.

It's kinda fortunate the Germans felt so highly of him. And no, I am not so obsessed with Patton's greatness. He was great as an army commander, but that was his limit. Group and higher was beyond his genius.



rico21 -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/27/2017 6:48:16 PM)

Patton on the Hunt II [:D]



sullafelix -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/27/2017 9:04:20 PM)

The only reason anyone on either side looked at The Pas De Calais was because it was the shortest distance between France and England.

The Germans assumed for a while that Normandy was just a feint and kept troops around Calais.

The strongest part of 'Fortress Europa' was at Calais.

A landing would have been extremely difficult.



Capt. Harlock -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/28/2017 1:23:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The only reason anyone on either side looked at The Pas De Calais was because it was the shortest distance between France and England.

The Germans assumed for a while that Normandy was just a feint and kept troops around Calais.

The strongest part of 'Fortress Europa' was at Calais.

A landing would have been extremely difficult.


There is an excellent audio lecture on this subject at:
https://www.thegreatcoursesplus.com/wwii-a-military-and-social-history/eisenhower-and-operation-overlord

It was downloadable for free a few years ago as a Memorial Day special, so you may be able to find the files floating around somewhere.
The basic idea was that not only is Pas-de-Calais closer to England, it also had the closer routes to the Ruhr Valley. This was Germany's industrial heartland, which the Nazis simply could not afford to lose. More, strategic surprise was impossible for the Allies: everyone in the world who cared to think about the problem knew there would be a landing in Northern France in Spring or early Summer 1944. What they did not know was that American armies are ravenous for supply like no one else's. The Allies needed Cherbourg and the other ports to provide the necessary supply capacity. Eventually, they would need Antwerp, but that could wait until the Allied forces on the continent had been brought to near full strength.



Hexagon -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/28/2017 8:24:53 AM)

If his idea was invade an area even more strong defending, closer to german reserves apart that a break in the german line offer less "empty" space to run like after Normandy break... better he command a paper army... specially when D-Day was far from be perfect even in an easier area with enemy reserves more in rear.

Allies needed a harbour AND SPACE to create the solid based needed to jump and retake France... apart that in the end they finished sending troops to open south France and the Atlantic coast... or at least neutralize it.



sullafelix -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/28/2017 5:46:02 PM)

Well then you get into a discussion of Napoleon's, Jomini's, and Clausewitz's writings and meanings.

Some interpret Schwerpunkt elbow etc. Of the enemy force to be his strongest point, and if you can crack that your golden.
Others interpret it as going for a joint or the softest enemy point.

I know the terminology is wrong, but work calls.



rico21 -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/28/2017 6:38:36 PM)

1-Patton is considered by the Germans as the best allied general (one that inflicts heavy losses in taking its goals).
2-Patton serves as attraction for the Germans who do not imagine a landing of the Allies without him.
3-Patton is not loved by his peers who should not be too painful for him to be dismissed from D-Day.
4-Patton was in France in 1917 in tanks.
5-Patton landed in French North Africa in 1942.
6-Patton helped to liberate France in 1944 .......
7-Patton is the American Lafayette.[&o][&o][&o]

[image]local://upfiles/53841/8F6C2B6C617B414EAE59550B9F4BA1B7.jpg[/image]



Lobster -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/28/2017 10:56:24 PM)

The English ports north of Cherbourg are vastly better than the English ports West of Calais. The distance from these major English ports to Calais is much farther than to Cherbourg. You need ports capable of handling the tonnage these ports (Portsmouth, Southampton, Plymouth) could and the turn around time from Cherbourg is much less than that to Calais. Seems to me Cherbourg would be the obvious catch, not Calais. But Russia will collapse like a house of cards, right?



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Gen Pattons D Day plan (9/29/2017 1:21:38 AM)

I've often wondered if the invasion fleet could have made it to Calais undetected.

We've got a real nice D-Day scenario sitting in TOAW IV [to be released]. It covers the whole of the French coast and allows for alternate invasion zones. I have played it and tried Calais, and it didn't work too well. The issue is that Boulogne, Calais, Dunkerque and Oostende don't have the capacity to support a large force. Therefore the Allies have to strike hard and fast for Antwerp or Le Havre. Le Havre is far away, and for Antwerp the Schelde has to be cleared, and neither are easy when facing the 15.Army plus Pz Div's.



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