Italo-German relations (Full Version)

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The Guru -> Italo-German relations (10/7/2016 8:24:38 PM)

Can't wait to lay hands on this game!

I was wondering how ( if at all) were Italo-German relations modelled (since they are played by the same player).
I mean, Mussolini's refusal to allow German troops in "his" theatre of operations until he was cornered by disaster cost Germany her only chance at victory (they were ready to ship FOUR Panzer Divisions in Libya in Septembre 1940! They would have been in Cairo by Xmas!)

Many strategic (board) WW2 wargames make the mistake of not properly rendering the crucial effects of Mussolini's jealousy and insistence to operate a "parallel war". As a result, Germany can over-invest the Med as soon as France falls with huge consequences.

I hope the devs here gave the issue a thought...



apec -> RE: Italo-German relations (10/8/2016 10:22:23 AM)

In StrategicCommand2 shipping 4 Pz + 1 HQ unit in North Africa cost in MMP the equivalent of 2 infantry divisions. Overall, a North Africa first strategy, means 6 or 7 units less on the russian border at Barbarossa start. I guess SC3 will have a similar cost balance, therefore it is a matter of priorities, you cannot be strong everywhere.



The Guru -> RE: Italo-German relations (10/8/2016 11:53:54 AM)

Well, the problem is not really the balance. Obviously, what you take here can't be there at the same time. The problem is minimally representing the political reality of the period. Already, it's kind of a twist to have Italy and Germany played by the same player, as Mussolini had his own agenda and was in competition with Hitler.

In the video, we see the Germans preparing to move troops and air into Italy as soon as the Italians declare war, in order to help take Malta. Now, imagining that Mussolini would have even considered allowing German troops to encroach on the Med at that point is total non-sense. He resisted German demands to send troops into the Med for as long as he believed he could handle it himself.

This may seem like a detail, and obviously a game like this has to make some concessions, but putting no restrictions to Italo-German cooperation can change the whole physiognomy of the early conflict. Worse, I bet it's going to be a no-brainer optimum move - and yet totally unrealistic.

There is an easy fix to this: allow (some) German troops on Italian soil once Italian morale goes below a certain point, and lift all restrictions when it reaches another level below. This would be a very simple way to simulate the effects of military failure on the Italian resistance against subordination to Germany.




apec -> RE: Italo-German relations (10/8/2016 2:40:15 PM)

I see what you mean, game wise it is possible to include decision events to simulate the historical Mussolini resistance to an early collaboration.
From what I understand, the game is designed to leave the player more options than the actual historical path. What I really like of the SC2 is the possibility to mod many aspects of the game to make it more linked to historical outcomes or more towards what-if situation so everyone can find his cup of tea :-)



xwormwood -> RE: Italo-German relations (10/8/2016 10:36:57 PM)

The Problem you describe is the same with the Allies. Western Allies have different war goals than Stalin, who didn't allowed the western Allies to enter soviet controlled teritories...



AlbertN -> RE: Italo-German relations (10/9/2016 11:35:06 AM)

Well first of all would be quite unpleasant for a player to handle Italy as stand alone power.

In other games (mainly tabletop) there are limitations of German forces in Italy, limitations which slowly indeed decline the further the Italian situation worsen.

But indeed if you apply such limitations there you may as well have other differing limits between West and Soviets. (Heck, the Anglo-French military planning even envisioned a bombing of Baku in order to limit Soviet fuel shipment to Germany that was due to R-M pact); using airbases in Iraq and Syria. Obviously when the fall of France took place these plans were well frozen in eternal ice and discarded with Barbarossa.



The Guru -> RE: Italo-German relations (10/9/2016 10:49:43 PM)

quote:

But indeed if you apply such limitations there you may as well have other differing limits between West and Soviets. (Heck, the Anglo-French military planning even envisioned a bombing of Baku in order to limit Soviet fuel shipment to Germany that was due to R-M pact); using airbases in Iraq and Syria. Obviously when the fall of France took place these plans were well frozen in eternal ice and discarded with Barbarossa.


well, obviously I'm certainly not in favour of unrealistic Western-soviet cooperation before Barbarossa!



Scook_99 -> RE: Italo-German relations (10/10/2016 7:29:42 PM)

What limits anything in this game is money, or the MPPs. It may not seem that is much of a limiting factor, but it really is huge! To conserve the most MPP, following history usually works out for the best. If you really want to try something though, go ahead and do it, but there will be a cost. Losing the services of two fully upgraded armies in 1941 (the cost of the above scenario) can be rather dramatic.

Try the game out, see how it plays, and keep an open mind. As good as a solo game this is, it is an amazing PvP game. The staff has expanded, and I haven't said it anywhere, but Bill Runacre is a big help to the development of the Strategic Command series. Bill has a lot of technical skills that are amazing (from this side of the game), but it his passion that helps propel the franchise forward. Ok, enough fan boyism, time for more beta.



Hubert Cater -> RE: Italo-German relations (10/11/2016 5:51:40 AM)

Thanks Scook and I fully agree, the game series really has improved significantly once Bill came on board starting with our older Pacific release in 2008. The fact that Bill's campaign designs have been exemplary has only made it that much easier for me to focus more on the coding side and especially the AI. I'd argue that it really has been win-win for not only us on the development side but for players as well.

I hope you enjoy this new game just as much, and if not more, than the older ones [:)]



Scook_99 -> RE: Italo-German relations (10/13/2016 10:17:55 AM)

Guru, I have been playing Axis and letting the computer control the Italians. I have to say that it looks to be playing out along a historical tract, and Mussolini is doing his own thing, and I will probably have to jump in and save his butt when the Allies express their displeasure with Italy.

The game won't allow Italy to refuse my entry into his areas, but I have to foot the bill in order to make it happen. Again, money is the limiting factor, and I don't like to waste it, unless it's going to cost Italy the game. So, yes, there is a way to approximate what you want with Italy. The biggest challenge will be the next game I will play Italy and let the computer control Germany. I expect it to be a fiasco, but should be fun and entertaining.



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