supply (Full Version)

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CAHouston -> supply (10/20/2016 6:18:33 PM)

is it best to HQ and aircraft on road or rails or in a city?



apec -> RE: supply (10/20/2016 6:31:06 PM)

There is the supply overlay button that shows the supply level for each hex on the map. You can see which hexes have higher supply and then decide where to place your units.




Biker1984 -> RE: supply (10/22/2016 10:15:59 AM)

I noticed that units which are out of supply (e.g. by encirclement) can be replenish. Is there any reason why this was made in this game?



Toby42 -> RE: supply (10/22/2016 12:58:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Biker1984

I noticed that units which are out of supply (e.g. by encirclement) can be replenish. Is there any reason why this was made in this game?


It's stuff like this that will keep me away from the game!



CAHouston -> RE: supply (10/22/2016 1:40:54 PM)

you can get limited reinforcement if in the encircled area there is a city.



BillRunacre -> RE: supply (10/22/2016 1:42:53 PM)

Hi

I'm not sure what you've seen, but it definitely isn't the case that units that are out of supply can reinforce.

Units can only reinforce if they have some supply, and units with zero supply cannot reinforce at all.

If a unit has some limited supply then it will be able to reinforce, but only to a limited extent. It's effectively a sliding scale, the better the supply, the more a unit can reinforce.

HQs are also a source of supply, with their own limitations in doing so, such as their own proximity to a supply source, the strength of that supply source, and their own strength, as damaged HQs are less efficient at providing supply to units.

Bill



CAHouston -> RE: supply (10/22/2016 2:57:15 PM)

I am looking forward to the game. tried to buy your Gold bundle, but am having problems. hope my ticket gets worked on again.



James Taylor -> RE: supply (10/22/2016 3:13:09 PM)

Hey Bill, was it ever decided that deteriating supply would be dependent on 3 units or 4 units adjacent?



BillRunacre -> RE: supply (10/22/2016 3:25:24 PM)

I'm glad you've mentioned this as it's another feature that makes it harder for cut-off units to survive for long! [:)]

We've currently got it set to just requiring 2 to be adjacent, and I suspect it will stay at that amount.



James Taylor -> RE: supply (10/22/2016 6:57:07 PM)

Two makes sense, in that it represents a loose ZoC around the cut-off unit. Must they be deployed opposite each other?

I really like this feature, but I wish we could expand on it further. Like only Corps or Army size units having a relevant exertion of ZoC for supply purposes.
(especially at this scale)

Further to that, additional units in the perimeter would elevate the supply loss for the surrounded unit per turn. This would simulate additional friction(use of ammo, petrol, sustenance) for the cut-off unit as well as providing for a replication of a "tighter" noose of which relief would be hard pressed to penetrate.

We all know in warfare there is no such thing as an impenetrable shield of enemy units to thwart a flow of at least some supply or reinforcement.



BillRunacre -> RE: supply (10/22/2016 8:22:45 PM)

No, they just need to be adjacent to the resource.

While I understand what your saying about only more powerful unit types being able to have this effect, if weaker units are used then the onus really is on the occupier of the resource to counter-attack and drive them off. So anyone using (say) Garrison units to do this is taking a risk. Plus a unit stronger than a Garrison will generally be needed to inflict the killing blow.



Biker1984 -> RE: supply (10/22/2016 8:26:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

Hi

I'm not sure what you've seen, but it definitely isn't the case that units that are out of supply can reinforce.

Units can only reinforce if they have some supply, and units with zero supply cannot reinforce at all.

If a unit has some limited supply then it will be able to reinforce, but only to a limited extent. It's effectively a sliding scale, the better the supply, the more a unit can reinforce.

HQs are also a source of supply, with their own limitations in doing so, such as their own proximity to a supply source, the strength of that supply source, and their own strength, as damaged HQs are less efficient at providing supply to units.

Bill


It is only fair that I would provide the source in this video.I'm not able to post a link yet, but it is Paradogs Gamer Part 19.
At 14.35 to 14.40 and Army and mech infantry/light tank is reduced to 3 steps each. They were already encircled the previous turn, yet on there own turn they are able to replenish them to 7 and 6 steps (can be seen at 22.00 to 22.10).
This seems to be very high IMO. It would make more sense if these units would suffer losses instead of being able to replenish them at all. I understand limited supply however should this not be 0 when units are encircled. (All units at cities ofcourse excluded).



NightPhoenix -> RE: supply (10/22/2016 9:07:26 PM)

I believe in this case those units are located around the city Lvov. Lvov by itself provides a supply of 10. Because of the German units surrounding, and the adjacent units their supply is significantly lowered. But not to 0. Thus they are able to reinforce to that level. This will of course not work for all cities as different cities have different supply that they provide. (Many cities in the desert provide very low supplies for example) Lvov is just a very large city. ;)



YohanTM -> RE: supply (10/23/2016 2:15:43 AM)

and turns are only measured in weeks so supply and replenishment for a few turns is not shocking



ILCK -> RE: supply (10/23/2016 2:19:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

Hi

I'm not sure what you've seen, but it definitely isn't the case that units that are out of supply can reinforce.

Units can only reinforce if they have some supply, and units with zero supply cannot reinforce at all.

If a unit has some limited supply then it will be able to reinforce, but only to a limited extent. It's effectively a sliding scale, the better the supply, the more a unit can reinforce.

HQs are also a source of supply, with their own limitations in doing so, such as their own proximity to a supply source, the strength of that supply source, and their own strength, as damaged HQs are less efficient at providing supply to units.

Bill



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8rYVj-DJwk

Midway through he even notes the unit reinforce. I dread seeing this "a city = supply" bit show up again in a game since pretty much anything you tuck into a pocket is going to have a city and it winds up being a bigger problem to encircle units than it is benefit.



Biker1984 -> RE: supply (10/23/2016 9:38:45 AM)

This is what I mean. Looking at the game concept this would probably work when you are conquering smaller countries like the UK, however in the USSR there will be a lot of pocket fighting while maintaining a stable front. This will have a impact on the advance of the eastern front.
Second and probably more important, from a logistic point of view, how should it be to replenish a corps or army which contained between 25k to 150k men in this case with three separate units when only holding 1 city like Lvov. I mean how would those men even get there, when there primary supply line is cut?
I understand that turns are 1 week per side, so you are passing 2 weeks each time you are playing. If you would have 1 week if both sides had played I could understand the concept somewhat better, but this seems to beneficial for the defender and with such a nice ZOC concept and making the supply count the encircle benefit seems negligible IMO.



BillRunacre -> RE: supply (10/23/2016 10:54:26 AM)

Thanks for the link, I have been watching some of the videos and enjoying them. [:)]

A cut-off city like Lwow will have a maximum supply value of 3, which means that the unit occupying it can reinforce up to a maximum of strength 6. In the video clip at 22:00, the defending unit was at strength 10 and brought down to 9. If you've seen it reinforce to anything higher then do let me know.

The units adjacent to Lwow would be able to reinforce up to a maximum strength of 5, and all of them should be easy to destroy in a turn or two. Cutting units off really does make a huge difference, as in the following Axis turn attacks against them would be much easier.

However, looking at the video, one big problem for the Axis on the Eastern Front is that there don't appear to be any German HQs in the area around Lwow. This would make a massive difference to the combat results, especially if any Tanks and Tactical Bombers were also in range to support. As Germany is fighting a two front war, invading the UK as well as the USSR, the Barbarossa offensive isn't quite as strong as it might have been.

Since Paradogs Gamer started his game we have changed one of the rules on resources, so that the presence of just 2 enemy units adjacent to most resource types (Capitals and Fortresses are excepted) will reduce their strength by 1 per turn. So this means that Lwow would reduce in strength over coming turns and any ability to reinforce would be further reduced... effectively to zero.

The way it is in the game, units may be able to hold out for a while when they are cut off and with access to resources if only a limited effort is put in to destroying them. But even so, a serious effort will swiftly destroy them.

This means that the various pockets on the Eastern Front like Stalingrad can be created and slowly reduced, with the onus being on the side that has units cut off to launch a counter-attack before their cut off units are destroyed on low supply.



CAHouston -> RE: supply (10/23/2016 2:38:22 PM)

so to prevent Malta receiving outside supplies you need to station a ship in the two port hexes?



Biker1984 -> RE: supply (10/23/2016 2:39:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

A cut-off city like Lwow will have a maximum supply value of 3, which means that the unit occupying it can reinforce up to a maximum of strength 6. In the video clip at 22:00, the defending unit was at strength 10 and brought down to 9. If you've seen it reinforce to anything higher then do let me know.

The units adjacent to Lwow would be able to reinforce up to a maximum strength of 5, and all of them should be easy to destroy in a turn or two. Cutting units off really does make a huge difference, as in the following Axis turn attacks against them would be much easier.

However, looking at the video, one big problem for the Axis on the Eastern Front is that there don't appear to be any German HQs in the area around Lwow. This would make a massive difference to the combat results, especially if any Tanks and Tactical Bombers were also in range to support. As Germany is fighting a two front war, invading the UK as well as the USSR, the Barbarossa offensive isn't quite as strong as it might have been.

Since Paradogs Gamer started his game we have changed one of the rules on resources, so that the presence of just 2 enemy units adjacent to most resource types (Capitals and Fortresses are excepted) will reduce their strength by 1 per turn. So this means that Lwow would reduce in strength over coming turns and any ability to reinforce would be further reduced... effectively to zero.



This sound great! The game on it self looks really good and again I love the AI taking its time and reacting to the player moves.
Regarding the video you should first watch at 13.40 to 14.40. The Soviet Army and mech next to Lwow are both reduced to 3 strength points and they are both increased to 7 and 6 respectively; so when you are mentioning did you mean they can be reinforced with 5 more troops or up to 5 strength points?



BillRunacre -> RE: supply (10/23/2016 2:55:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CAHouston

so to prevent Malta receiving outside supplies you need to station a ship in the two port hexes?


Yes, positioning a ship adjacent to the port hexes will prevent the port acting as a source of supply to any land units.

However, in doing so you risk being attacked so it should only be done when you either have naval superiority/supremacy, or it is very important to do so.



BillRunacre -> RE: supply (10/23/2016 2:59:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Biker1984


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

A cut-off city like Lwow will have a maximum supply value of 3, which means that the unit occupying it can reinforce up to a maximum of strength 6. In the video clip at 22:00, the defending unit was at strength 10 and brought down to 9. If you've seen it reinforce to anything higher then do let me know.

The units adjacent to Lwow would be able to reinforce up to a maximum strength of 5, and all of them should be easy to destroy in a turn or two. Cutting units off really does make a huge difference, as in the following Axis turn attacks against them would be much easier.

However, looking at the video, one big problem for the Axis on the Eastern Front is that there don't appear to be any German HQs in the area around Lwow. This would make a massive difference to the combat results, especially if any Tanks and Tactical Bombers were also in range to support. As Germany is fighting a two front war, invading the UK as well as the USSR, the Barbarossa offensive isn't quite as strong as it might have been.

Since Paradogs Gamer started his game we have changed one of the rules on resources, so that the presence of just 2 enemy units adjacent to most resource types (Capitals and Fortresses are excepted) will reduce their strength by 1 per turn. So this means that Lwow would reduce in strength over coming turns and any ability to reinforce would be further reduced... effectively to zero.



This sound great! The game on it self looks really good and again I love the AI taking its time and reacting to the player moves.
Regarding the video you should first watch at 13.40 to 14.40. The Soviet Army and mech next to Lwow are both reduced to 3 strength points and they are both increased to 7 and 6 respectively; so when you are mentioning did you mean they can be reinforced with 5 more troops or up to 5 strength points?


You are right, what has happened in the video isn't what I would have expected as a cut off Lwow should only have a supply value of 3. It does suggest that Lwow's supply is higher than it should have been (remember this is beta) whereas the units should have only been able to reinforce to strength 5.

One for us to investigate!



James Taylor -> RE: supply (10/23/2016 3:33:27 PM)

I have modeled supply many times in AoD to see how it actually works when units are cutoff. Understand that supply deteriates one per turn with two units adjacent to the resource, that is 1 for your turn and 1 for your opponents turn, two per cycle.

A supply source of 5 dwindles quickly, two cycles, and with a little strategic bombing it can be brought to zero in one cycle. The problem is if there is a HQ in the mix. HQ provides supply of 10, if HQ = 10 strength and resource >= to 6. If resource less than 6, then HQ provides 8 supply. Once resource falls to zero supply, HQ provides supply of 5.

Any reduction in strength of supply providing HQ will further diminish supply, so you see it is important to target any HQ in the encirclement as well as the supplying resource.

Remember also that the projection of supply is limited(action points), so an HQ will want to remain very close to(or on) the supply resource to gain the enhancement of its supply especially as the resource loses supply.

The same goes for the units in the encirclement, they'll want to remain adjacent or very close to the HQ to benefit from maximum supply, making for a tighter deployment more easily reduced by opponent's activities.



ILCK -> RE: supply (10/23/2016 7:12:24 PM)

I can see units having some supply - even then a corps or army on combat footing is going to blow through supplies that might have been depoed in the area. Adding manpower still makes no sense unless each city has a training center capable of adding thousands of troops a week.

Watching into episode 20 the cutoff units appear to be giving a shockingly good account of themselves when attacked still.



James Taylor -> RE: supply (10/23/2016 7:47:39 PM)

Depending upon readiness and morale, and especially unit experience the isolated units may continue to be effective.

One word of advice, do not attack a unit multiple times if you're not expecting it to lose at least one step of strength as each attack will allow a gain in experience if no damage is done.



BillRunacre -> RE: supply (10/23/2016 9:31:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ILCK

I can see units having some supply - even then a corps or army on combat footing is going to blow through supplies that might have been depoed in the area. Adding manpower still makes no sense unless each city has a training center capable of adding thousands of troops a week.

Watching into episode 20 the cutoff units appear to be giving a shockingly good account of themselves when attacked still.


I agree, but offensives without HQ support are very difficult, as they not only provide supply but also (and more significantly) combat bonuses to the units under their command.

In terms of units in and around Lwow reinforcing:
I've just run a test where I replicated the exact same circumstances and the good news is that the Red Army units can only reinforce to 6 (in Lwow) and 5 (adjacent to Lwow), which are the expected levels.

Units at low strength and supply like this are sitting ducks, and an Axis offensive into the USSR in 1941 would normally blow them away without any difficulty. However, as the Axis are fighting a war on two fronts in this video, their invasion of the USSR lacks the punch that you'd normally expect.



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