Standard Infantry Squad compositions? (Full Version)

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IronManBeta -> Standard Infantry Squad compositions? (4/22/2003 6:52:48 AM)

I am rounding out the passenger lists for the various IFV in the game and discover that I have no ready source for this very basic info!

I am looking for the typical weapons carried by infantry squads in all the various IFV / APCs of the four main nationalities at the end of the 80s. With all the books and magazines around me I'm sure I have it somewhere, but can I find it?

If someone has a set of miniatures rules or can look it up somewhere it would be a huge help to me.

For example, the 7 passengers of a BMP2 might between them have 4 LMG, a RPG16, and a ?.

Many thanks, Rob.



byron13 -> (4/23/2003 12:49:32 AM)

Rob, the passengers of a BMP2 would not have had a question mark - Cyrillic or otherwise.



IronManBeta -> (4/24/2003 8:25:44 AM)

I was trying to come up with the standard man-portable WP SAM of the period and drew a blank. A SAM-7? (note question mark)

The brain seems well and truly fried...

There is nothing more frustrating than being surrounded by all the info in the world and not being able to find what you want for lack of an indexing system. Ah well, suck on a beer and engage in deep thought again.

The game is progressing well but the urge to rewrite what is probably good enough is overwhelming. Will not get done if I keep doing that!

Cheers all, Rob.



Paul Wykes -> A little info for you (4/26/2003 10:50:13 PM)

Hello,

I found this (very small) piece on info about the passengers for the BMP.

"The BMP has a three-man crew, including the vehicle commander, who becomes the squad leader when the infantry passengers dismount through the rear exit doors. However, vision blocks and firing ports in the sides and rear of the troop compartment allow the infantrymen to fire assault rifles (AKM or AK-74) and light machine guns (PKM or RPK-74) from inside the vehicle on the move. The troops also carry the RPG-7 or RPG-16 AT grenade launcher and the SA-7/ GRAIL or SA-14 SAM, either of which can be fired by a passenger standing in a rear hatch. When buttoned up, crew and passengers have NBC protection in the pressurized and filtered hull, which allows them to operate regardless of the outside environment"

This from the FAS web site. I`ll keep looking for any other info. I quite enjoy seeing what Information I can find. I`m of to the library tomorrow so I`ll see what I can find.



Larry Smith -> (4/27/2003 2:50:42 AM)

Robert, I remember from my copy of Leading Edge Game's "Mechanized Combat System" that the SA-7/14 (or newer) was carried in one of three BMP's--ie., the platoon leader's BMP. I'll check my book when I get home. I also have a set of minature rules that I'll use to cross reference. I also recall that the MANPADS were issued in US squads in the same fashion, with the platoon leaders squad.



Larry Smith -> (4/30/2003 10:17:26 AM)

Here's that info

Soviet Motor Rifle Platoon

3xSquad [each 8 troops (w/1xRPG) & 1xBMP or BTR], 1 SAM team of 2 men

The information on US units states that there are 5xMANPADs teams of 2 men each at the battalion level, doled out as needed

This is from "Combat Commander", by Enola Games The copyright date is 1978. So I don't know how relavent it is. The other game had nothing about MANPADS, as it only focused on land combat.



Black Cat -> (5/1/2003 5:05:47 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RobertCrandall
[B]I was trying to come up with the standard man-portable WP SAM of the period and drew a blank. A SAM-7? (note question mark)

The brain seems well and truly fried...

There is nothing more frustrating than being surrounded by all the info in the world and not being able to find what you want for lack of an indexing system. Ah well, suck on a beer and engage in deep thought again.

The game is progressing well but the urge to rewrite what is probably good enough is overwhelming. Will not get done if I keep doing that!

Cheers all, Rob. [/B][/QUOTE]

Rob

With all due respect: Better is the enemy of Good Enough. Get it done and out there.

Please consider the path taken in Uncommon Valor, perhaps the best Serious Wargame published in many years.

The Game was good and worked on issue, minor bugs were crushed in fast patches, but more important, major enhancements and refinements were also available through these patches.

This was a good and realistic mindset on the part of the developers and publisher, which used these forums and fan base to refine the program, and perhaps more important get feedback on what the end users expected and wanted.

The truth is, until knowlegable Gamers get the time to put 1000`s of collective hours, using differient strategies, into a Game, there is no way to know how stable the code is, or how well it replicates the battles in the time period it`s suppose to represent. Beta testers can only do so much.

I think all Gamers are somewhat fickle, and if a project sits too long in development, interest assumes the shape of a Bell Curve, with all that implies.

I don`t think software is ever " finished " folks just stop working on it at some point.

Please consider this just a friendly IMHO and the views of an old time viewer of the Computer Wargame scene who wants FPG to be a great success ;)



IronManBeta -> (5/7/2003 1:20:22 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Black Cat
[B]Rob

With all due respect: Better is the enemy of Good Enough. Get it done and out there.

I think all Gamers are somewhat fickle, and if a project sits too long in development, interest assumes the shape of a Bell Curve, with all that implies.

I don`t think software is ever " finished " folks just stop working on it at some point.

Please consider this just a friendly IMHO and the views of an old time viewer of the Computer Wargame scene who wants FPG to be a great success ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

Point taken. I just want to get this shipped so that I can kick back and frolic with the wife again on weekends.

Cheers, Rob.



Crassus -> (5/11/2003 2:37:08 PM)

[URL=http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/100-60/100-60.pdf]FM 100-60, Armor- and Mechanized-Based Opposing Force[/URL]

or

[URL=http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/100-63/toc.htm]FM 100-63, Infantry-Based Opposing Force[/URL]

They do go as far "down" as squad-level, in breaking down the TOE, though I personnally would prefer even more detail with some of the other squads/sections.



IronManBeta -> (5/11/2003 8:11:35 PM)

Thanks for the links! I had the first one already but not the second one.

Rob



LTCMTS -> References (5/29/2003 8:04:59 AM)

First, by 1988, the SA-14 was the standard MANPAD for Catagory A divisions, such as in SGFG. A mix of SA-14 and SA-7's would be present in the Catagory B and SA-7s in the Catagory C and Mob Only units. The SA-16 was being introduced.
MANPADS and AGS-17 GLs were carried in BMPs by the AD and AGL platoons in the BMP equipped MRBs. The normal MR platoons with BMPs did not have them.
BMP equipped MR squads had a seven man dismount, 1 SQD LDR with AK-74, 1 MG w/RPK-74, 1 G w/RPG-7V, 4 riflemen w/ AK-74. No dismounted sqds carry radios.
1 of the 3 PLTs in the BMP equipped MRC has a SVD ILO a AK-74.
The PLT HQs is 2 AK-74. The PKMs are in the MG PLT at the CO level.
Second, I would use FM 100-2-3 "The Soviet Army: Troops, Organization and Equipment", June 1991. The info is usually 1-3 years after the initial implementation of changes by the Soviets,
Also, Isby's "Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army (New Edition), Jane's, 1988 is a good source. I've got others going back to the 1950's.
Isby and Kamps, "Armies of the NATO's Central Front", Jane's
1985 is a good starting place for the US, Germans, Canadians, Brits, Dutch, Belgians and French.

P.S> If you can find a copy of FM-101-10-1/1 and FM-101-10-1/2, the Staff Officer's Manual, that's pretty good on unit TOE, utilization and planning factors for divisional and non-divisional units. I think the last set was published around 1988, based on the Div 86/AOE. I had a copy but these things tend to disappear.



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