RE: Four Seasons with Models (Full Version)

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Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (9/26/2019 9:10:55 PM)

Thanks for kind words CB! And the help debugging

Larry -

Actually the gun thing is not a bug. This should be on the research card, but maybe it is not that obvious (it is in the manual), but the 30 mm guns don't go with Light Tank II, but are required for either Light Tank III or Medium Tank I. In addition, once you have researched the gun, you need to "improve" the model in the model designer. The manual shows the matrix for guns and models. Note that Medium Tank I will only tank up to the 50 mm gun. When you research the 75 mm guns, you need to research medium Tank II and make a new Medium Tank model. Your MT I model is essentially obsolete. You cannot upgrade the model to MT II (but you can upgrade the SFTypes that are in the units). Tonight, I'll copy it and post. The same goes for the armor improvements, after you have researched the tech, you need to "improve" existing models. New models, however, will have improvements automatically applied to them. Some techs, however, lead to an alteration. For these, you need to actually apply the alteration before producing the model (this is an ATG rule).

As for being different than the base model. There are two reasons for this. First of all, the base models are ONLY available to the AI if models are used. The AI can't use models, and the AI wouldn't really know what to do with the guns. The base model represents an average of what you can get with the model system. So, the models you start with will not be as good as the base, but if you keep up the improvements, your models will actually be much better! To compensate for the improvements, I did make the techs a little cheaper for human players to help balance things a bit since you will go through many more models. On the other hand, in general the AI is beatable, so this is one little advantage it gets that can help balance it out.

The other thing is that the models are not monolithic. There is a bit of variation (just as in ANewDawn). Some models will be just a bit different with the same tech. It isn't huge, but it is for variability. And, well some models are just better. I am pretty sure Patton might have preferred some PzKpfw IV or V instead of the Shermans, but that is what he had to work with. It would be help create General envy between human players.

There is one small quirk with the models that is rather minor. If you research Level N+1, you will still the Level N model concept is still available when you go straight to the model builder. This is a quirk that you can't make a model obsolete with a setting. It will, however, become unavailable as soon as you make a Level N+1 model. It will disappear from the list. This is by design. The models have a secondary tech that is required, and I take that tech away for the Level N model when you make a Level N+1 model. Just can't do it in a simple way that makes it so that you never see the two of them together.

HQs, that's OK. For the most part though, the AI tends to have several units assigned to them, so they get wasted. Also, the radius is about 3 hexes, which more or less lets them support 6-9 units. You might want to consider keeping the HQs in roughly every third city as armies and assign the corps to them. I think this can be done.



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (9/27/2019 4:33:15 AM)

Here is a list of tank guns and level:



[image]local://upfiles/31331/BFA141C8617A45D9A33DA0A6302CB56B.jpg[/image]



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (9/27/2019 4:35:59 AM)

Here are tank alterations and improvements:



[image]local://upfiles/31331/AC841F8D8D8C443DBE495C0836B3C294.jpg[/image]



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (9/27/2019 4:51:24 AM)

Here is a description of how to use the "Remove Rail or Road" Action card, which is needed to build over a paved road or a rail of different gauge.




[image]local://upfiles/31331/F18B65528F5C42AD86DBFD306D02B63F.jpg[/image]



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/1/2019 4:08:14 AM)

I just uploaded version 3.1

FourSeasons-at2-v3.1.atzip

which fixes two bugs:

1. The more consequential of the two and it only affects the AI with random railroads variant on. Since the AI can't switch from one rail gauge to the other with engineers, I made an event to replace the "wrong" rail gauge with the proper rail in all territory owned by the AI regime. This happens roughly every 10 turns (probability of 10%). The bug caused the AI's rail & road to be converted to just a paved road.

2. I neglected to change the description for the "Increase(Decrease) Armor" alteration for tanks. Instead of informing you that it "decreased(increased) speed", it was supposed to be "increase(decrease) raw used for production". The action was correct, just the left over description. Instead of making them have less range, I made them more expensive in terms of raw.

Edit: For Larry. If you want to copy in your modified event to put HQ's everywhere, beware that when you copy an event from another file, and then move it down to where you want, you could mess up the AI autobuild for factories. These use events # 18 and 19 before and after the call. If you move an event below 19 this will offset this counter (it is the only object that I know of that this happens to) for each buildable factory (tank, guns, and aircraft) and mess things up. You'll have to reset these manually. This probably happens if you delete any event below them as well.



LarryBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/1/2019 3:04:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ormand

Edit: For Larry. If you want to copy in your modified event to put HQ's everywhere, beware that when you copy an event from another file, and then move it down to where you want, you could mess up the AI autobuild for factories. These use events # 18 and 19 before and after the call. If you move an event below 19 this will offset this counter (it is the only object that I know of that this happens to) for each buildable factory (tank, guns, and aircraft) and mess things up. You'll have to reset these manually. This probably happens if you delete any event below them as well.



I did not change the order of events. All I did was edit the event so it did not check for every third city it just added the HQ. I also edited the event which set up the diplomatic hold on war...I was getting war on the second turn every time. This was too early I think. All I did was edit the starting size of the multipliers to a smaller number...I will experiment to get war starting soon after the start of the game but not the second turn. I kept a copy of your mod separated and named my mod copy to "4Seasons MyUSA.*"...in the scenario folder--just in case I needed to correct an error. I edited in two new "factories"...supply only center and recruitment center (replacing the Mercenary and Research Centers)--limiting them to urban areas ONLY. Not sure how to make the AI build them so I did not edit the AI build factory events--although it would be nice if the AI could build the supply centers.

I think the descriptions of the new tank models does not add the "true" size of the gun to the description...have not read the event so don't know if this is a bug or you just did not add that to the descriptions. I generally research larger guns than the current model can hold so the tank II, III, and IV are researched after the guns that they can carry.



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/4/2019 4:34:08 AM)

Sorry for the somewhat late reply. Real life, aka work, got in the wat=y.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryBurstyn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ormand


I think the descriptions of the new tank models does not add the "true" size of the gun to the description...have not read the event so don't know if this is a bug or you just did not add that to the descriptions. I generally research larger guns than the current model can hold so the tank II, III, and IV are researched after the guns that they can carry.



I am not 100% sure what you are refering to here. I think this is referring to the description of the research,. and I see that I was a bit sloppy. I only worked on the Light Tanks, and they were not quite correct relative to the matrix I posted. I have rewritten the description of the research. In addition, I added the caveat that it is for models. These descriptions should now be accurate relative to the matrix above (hopefully - note I had to copy it into three separate scenario files).

In addition, I did find a slight misalignment in the allowed guns for Heavy Tank IV. This is fixed as well.

Lastly, regarding the diplomatic block. I too found cases where it seemed to end too quickly; like turn 2 on a large map. This is a bit odd, but looks like it was just bad luck. The block was guaranteed for turn 1 and then the probability to end increased by 25% per turn. Hence, it was odd to see it end on turn 2 several times. Seemingly with a likelihood greater than one in four. I made a change to this event that increased the "dead time", that is how long the event block was guaranteed to stay (0 probability). You shouldn't make it too long as it then allows you to get a line in place,and the AI has a much harder time of it. The goal was to have the block be longer for larger maps since you have farther to go with your units. The goal was also to make the AI progressively more likely to declare war as time goes on.

The new version is FourSeasons-at2-v3.2



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/4/2019 1:32:06 PM)

Also, regarding the order of events, what I was referring to is that if you wanted to save time and just import your edited event to replace mine, to be careful of that little trap. That's all.



LarryBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/6/2019 8:30:48 PM)

Version 3.2 Bug.

Cannot research Heavy Artillery. Says you need Artillery 75mm with which you start the game. So don't know why I cannot research heavy artillery.

EDIT--->I looked at the research and noticed a difference between this research and others...Something called Category was set to 3 whereas on most research it was set at -1....tried it (changed it to -1) and heavy artillery research showed up immediately.<---EDIT

Some research cards seem to be truncated...some of the descriptions seems to be cut off--especially those that are models.



rubbing it in.....

What is work? Sounds like a bad 4 letter word. (heh heh--I'm retired.)



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/7/2019 3:19:34 AM)

Yep, you caught a mistake that was left over from when I was blocking it (75 mm artillery blocked cat=3 research). This is fixed, and now requires Artillery 150 mm to research. Makes sense right? After all the Heavy artillery is supposed to be 210-250 mm.

I hadn't quite realized just how little space there is in the tech descriptions. I have modified these to make them fit. I also took off all the references to change in capabilities since this could change in the future, and it would be better to look them up. In fact what might be good, and complicated to do, is for Vic to make link so that one could click on the units from the tech screen. But, rather complicated. I think the category is something that might be very useful for sorting the research trees. Kind of what I did with the pre-label, but possibly with a new tab or something. Right now, it is useful to making other trees allowing a tech to block a whole category.

I also found an error in the Southern Hemisphere where I forgot to change the start month from May to November. That is is fixed.

It is now FourSeasons-at2-v3.3

Go ahead an rub it in. Next July for me. But, things will get worse as I will be an acting division leader until a permanent selection is made.

Edit: Sorry, two minutes after I uploaded and posted, I did a double check, and found a small mistake in the EU scenario file for the officer lists for one regime. Given all the changes to the tech descriptions, I had to rebuild the EU and SH files.



LarryBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/7/2019 2:51:59 PM)

Every time you come up with a new version I start a new game...this time before I even finish round (turn) one of the game. Oh well it gives me something to do while I wait (not patiently) for my turns in the GD games I am playing.

I find it confusing the terms turn and round. Round is where everyone has played a turn while turn is when one player has finished his "turn". In some other games I've played turn is when everyone has finished their turns.

EDIT STARTS HERE:
I artificially gave myself enough PP to research a lot of things....I can now research Heavy Artillery 210mm after researching Artillery 150mm BUT I cannot produce it...I did not check anything in the editor mode just tried out the Heavy Artillery in game.



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/7/2019 5:53:00 PM)

I'll check this out tonight. I must have left something off in the items. UGH!



ernieschwitz -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/7/2019 6:59:12 PM)

quote:

I find it confusing the terms turn and round. Round is where everyone has played a turn while turn is when one player has finished his "turn". In some other games I've played turn is when everyone has finished their turns.


I found that confusing too, but as a modder, to know the difference between the two by heart is a necessary evil.



ernieschwitz -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/7/2019 7:00:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ormand

I'll check this out tonight. I must have left something off in the items. UGH!


Finding errors is good. Firstly it improves your mod, that they were found. Secondly they prove you are human. (I guess that means the more errors the more human you are?)



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/8/2019 12:49:32 AM)

Well, that was a bit embarrassing. The problem was left over from when I had disabled heavy artillery. I had thought that it was changed, but there are so many interconnected things in this game that it is really easy to lose track!

At any rate the issue was in the item, and specifically the item group type, i.e., infantry, aircraft, artillery, vehicle, ships, etc. Basically items that can be built at certain locations. It was set to "not used", which was a convenient way to "hide" an item.

It is fixed at the usual place: FourSeasons-at2-v3.4.atzip (edit: changed to 3.4)

I know what you mean when you get along, and then it makes sense to start over. My hurdle is getting past the first turn, which has a lot of book keeping to get it set up.

One thing to consider, which is actually good for me is to make the game "Loadable". This way you can actually fix something along the way if need be. Especially, something fairly one-dimensional and minor like this. The main caveat is that it resets the round and turn to zero, so you shouldn't edit before the diplomatic block is off as it will reset the counter. But, having a saved game that is loadable is useful if you come across something odd, or you want to get check on how the AI is coming along. edit: Maybe it would also unblock the event. I am not sure about that.

Oh, and I am pretty human!



Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/8/2019 7:46:37 PM)

I downloaded the 3 files you said to play this now I have 3 masters which is the one I am supposed to use? LOL



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/8/2019 8:30:37 PM)

I made a mistake in the last post. It is FourSeasons-at2-v3.4.atzip. It points to the proper file since that one replaced the last one.

You need to "install" all three.

FourSeasons-3.3-AllGraphics.atzip has all the graphics files, which are likely tobe rather static.

GeneralsProject-v1.11.atzip has the portraits of the generals

and

FourSeasons-at2-v3.4.atzip which has the actual scenario files, the mod file, and a few additional things.

The mode file will give the option to load when you start ATG, at which point FourSeasons becomes the "default" You can then start FourSeasons random games for each of the three major variants, US, EU and SH.

US is standard random games with US replacing Anglo. EU uses only European regimes, and SH is in the southern hemisphere with some different regimes.

The southern hemisphere works best for maps with more land mass than with ocean. This is because I can't really invert the map, just the weather zones, which includes desert. Thus, if there is a lot of water, perhaps there will be desert slot in the ocean. Not that there is desert, it just means there won't be desert on the map. The problem with inverting the map is that I don't think I can place a river on a hex side, I can only check for a river on a hex side, and I can change a river type in the hex. Still, what you get is a map with the weather system inverted. By the way, you can make maps that have weather from arctic to antarctic.




Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/10/2019 3:51:34 AM)

Couple things, one of your light tank I ( not sure if true with others yet havent tried) improvements causes the light tank to cost 738 Raw. Not sure which since I dont remember which I clicked.

Question.... how come when I go in the master and change the amount city and raw and oil produce they dont change? Also changing the item costs doesnt do anything either. The game is fun but I prefer beefy armies.



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/10/2019 5:56:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Couple things, one of your light tank I ( not sure if true with others yet havent tried) improvements causes the light tank to cost 738 Raw. Not sure which since I dont remember which I clicked.


Thanks (sort of) you found a bug the play testers didn't. It was for the "Decrease Armor" alteration. I forgot to divide by 100. Oops. I also saw that I had a type for the "Increase Armor" (it said Decrease Armor as well - ugh). I fixed this. I also decided to go back to changing the speed as well. So, increasing/decreasing armor speeds/slows the tank model. It This would be one reason to decrease the armor. Otherwise, it seems like something that a player wouldn't necessarily think of doing. The increase/decrease in armor and speed is +/- 9%.

New version: FourSeasons-at2-v3.5.atzip

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes
Question.... how come when I go in the master and change the amount city and raw and oil produce they dont change? Also changing the item costs doesnt do anything either. The game is fun but I prefer beefy armies.


For part one, are you talking about editing the random game that is created? I run the event to set initial production on the first turn, and slightly modify the AI (more supplies and less PP), so this would reset changes you make to the random game at2 file.

As for the costs of items, ah, I reset these as well when using models. This is because I set the non model SFTypes to -1 for human players when using the models variant, and then reset them for the AI players. This is done in event 97. I could use GameVars to store a base cost for these, but it is a fairly large number of units to keep track of. It could be done, and then you could edit them. The idea being to use only the models if you choose that variant. Thus, if there is an AI regime, I have to switch the costs for the SFTypes back and forth.



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/10/2019 6:00:14 AM)

I meant to ask what you meant by "beefy armies". More armor? Or rather, armor with bigger tanks?

The idea is to build those up. I do notice though that the AI seems to be reticent to go for medium tanks. This is something that can be fixed. I do find the AI can be pretty persistent and push pretty hard. Some of the modifications to the attacks helps it from burning out too quickly, and I think the modification to readiness loss helps keep the AI armies from wasting away early on.



Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/10/2019 6:47:12 AM)

as set your variant doesn't allow for much being built. I prefer large armies so I usually increase raw production oil and cities.



ernieschwitz -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/10/2019 7:10:56 AM)

quote:

I could use GameVars to store a base cost for these, but it is a fairly large number of units to keep track of.


You know that you could use stringlists too? :)



ernieschwitz -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/10/2019 7:12:16 AM)

quote:

as set your variant doesn't allow for much being built. I prefer large armies so I usually increase raw production oil and cities.


One thing that might be possible is to change the production points of location types. That way you get what you want, as well as no reset.



Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/10/2019 8:24:00 AM)

I tried reseting how much cities produce and oil and raw it just resets them. I just make a few extra cities set the people to a higher production and add mines and oil.



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/10/2019 9:19:21 PM)

I think what you are saying is that you want more production so that you build more stuff (and fight more stuff). I can add a variant to do that. How much more do you think it should be? 25%? 50%?

I can look into storing the variables so that you can modify the LocTypes, etc., and still have it work out for the models and one week turn variants. Though, this might take a little more effort. And a little while since I'll be away on travel (for that nasty four-letter word).



Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/10/2019 9:43:58 PM)

Only do that if others want it to you don't need to cater to me ). Found another bug I think. Level 1 fighter with both improvements ( didnt try with out improvements) converted to naval version registers as -1 production on purchase screen. I also bought ASW tech but did not see anyway to build them?



Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/10/2019 11:09:27 PM)

Bicycle Infantry have no combat stats and no weight as a unit.



Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/11/2019 1:09:33 AM)

No stats for motorcycles either.



Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/11/2019 3:29:23 AM)

The Medium tank destroyer/assault gun doesn't appear in unit using models. I made the medium one named it M-18 selected Medium tank destroyer / assault Gun and I have them in inventory but they are not being called to unit. Don't know about Heavy haven't gotten that far yet.



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/11/2019 5:37:52 AM)

This is going to take a little longer than I thought. First, I found something that went wrong with officers: their descriptions disappeared. So, I have to track this down. I am not sure what is going on there.

As for the infantry that shouldn't be happening. They have stats in the master. So, I have to track that down.



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