German and Italian Carriers never show up (Full Version)

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MrLongleg -> German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/24/2016 7:05:16 PM)

I agreed to both decisions to build the carrier for Germany and Italy, paid the price in MPP over many rounds and the carriers never show up. It is Sep 41 and I am still waiting for them. Is that a bug?



BillRunacre -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/24/2016 7:19:26 PM)

Hi

The Graf Zeppelin will arrive in January 1942 and the Aquila at the start of 1943.

You might want to have a look at the Decisions in the Strategy Guides (and the 1939 one is also contained at the end of the Manual) as these will give information on all the Decisions to help keep an eye on what to expect. [:)]




gaiuslaelius -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/24/2016 7:55:48 PM)

So the naval units are single ships on a map of 20 miles per hex with no stacking? If the player moves a force of a capital ship surrounded by escorting vessels, then the distance between the starboard and port escorts (or the van and the rear) is going to be an absolute minimum of 40 miles. There's something wrong with that. Perhaps I'm mistaken regarding the 20 miles per hex. If not, then perhaps naval units should represent formations such as "Force H" or "Force Harstad"- or even entire fleets. Such formations might actually be container units to which individual naval units could be attached. Just sayin...



xwormwood -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/24/2016 8:10:51 PM)

Naval units are not single ships, they only bear the name of a single ship, that is all.



gaiuslaelius -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/25/2016 5:46:59 PM)

The Germans receive a BB in Feb 41 (Bismarck) and another in Aug 41 (Tirpitz). They start the game with two CCs (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau). So for them anyway, capital ships appear to be single units. Regardless, even if smaller units comprise divisions or even squadrons, the hex scale is entirely too large for such formations.



n0kn0k -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/25/2016 6:18:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gaiuslaelius

So the naval units are single ships on a map of 20 miles per hex with no stacking? If the player moves a force of a capital ship surrounded by escorting vessels, then the distance between the starboard and port escorts (or the van and the rear) is going to be an absolute minimum of 40 miles. There's something wrong with that. Perhaps I'm mistaken regarding the 20 miles per hex. If not, then perhaps naval units should represent formations such as "Force H" or "Force Harstad"- or even entire fleets. Such formations might actually be container units to which individual naval units could be attached. Just sayin...


I believe it's 15 per hex.



gaiuslaelius -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/25/2016 6:22:28 PM)

From what I've read, it's 20. Just sayin.



warspite1 -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/25/2016 8:55:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gaiuslaelius

The Germans receive a BB in Feb 41 (Bismarck) and another in Aug 41 (Tirpitz). They start the game with two CCs (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau). So for them anyway, capital ships appear to be single units.
warspite1

Now that is more than a little disappointing......[:(]

What do the Italians have?



Challerain -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/25/2016 9:10:06 PM)

Manual clearly states that a naval unit represents several combat and support units clustered around a named capital ship



Amona -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/25/2016 9:39:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1




What do the Italians have?



The Regia Marina consists of 4 BB, 3 CA, 1 CL, 1 DD and a sub. Later they get two more battleships, if I remember correctly.
Remember that the Royal Navy has its carriers, and thats a huge advantage, especially against the AI.
Regarding your excellent AAR, the British Med fleet is a bit weak to counter the Italians at present. You may consider giving up the Med in respect to naval and concentrating the fleet in the North Sea. Try to lure out the Kriegsmarine by raiding the Norwegian convoy. Once you have sunk the two German BBs and the two CCs, you can concentrate on the Med again.
The Italians do nothing dangerous with their fleet anyway, it only becomes a problem if you want to land in Sicily and so on.



gaiuslaelius -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/25/2016 9:47:41 PM)

Many thanks Challerain for the info. I have only youtube videos for reference and am trying to determine whether the game is worth buying. Regarding light naval forces such as destroyer and light cruiser counters, does the manual reference how many vessels are represented?



Ironclad -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/25/2016 9:59:33 PM)

Follow the fine SC video series of Paradogs Gamer or Night Phoenix and you'll soon gain a good understanding of how the game plays and its scope. Watching those encouraged me to get it on release and its proving even better than expected and we still have the multiplayer option to come. With committed developers we can look forward to it getting even better.



gaiuslaelius -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/25/2016 10:28:45 PM)

Thank you. I'm currently doing that, although I'm not sold on the naval aspect just yet. The map scale looks overly large for the unit scale; as I understand it, capital ship units represent the ships and escorts. Among other things, it means that German forays into the Atlantic consist of light vessels which lacked the range to do so. It also sounds as though friendly capital ships will never be in the same formation. Not trying to nitpick, but I'll keep watching Paradogs gamers' videos and will look for reviews on Amazon.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/26/2016 1:53:31 AM)

quote:

it means that German forays into the Atlantic consist of light vessels which lacked the range to do so. It also sounds as though friendly capital ships will never be in the same formation.

I am with you on this, but first keep in mind that the game is not meant to be an exact historical representation of all things. That said, I think it could, or could at least be very close. So I'm working on a mod that, among other things, incorporates historical oob's. At this scale, for this mod, this means that Naval Units would represent Battle Groups/Task Forces. Easy enough with the nice editor that the guys have given us, but for the German Surface Raiders this is tricky because they weren't meant to work in groups. I took my current solution from 'Plan Z', which envisioned German Battle Groups to distract the UK's fleet while a few Surface Raiders worked the convoys. We'll never know how it would have worked historically, but in the mod it seems to work ok.



warspite1 -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/26/2016 4:36:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amona


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1




What do the Italians have?



The Regia Marina consists of 4 BB, 3 CA, 1 CL, 1 DD and a sub. Later they get two more battleships, if I remember correctly.
Remember that the Royal Navy has its carriers, and thats a huge advantage, especially against the AI.

warspite1

Well I am only just starting out on the game so don't want to say too much but what with this and the Germans getting their 4 BB/BC, that seems a little Axis friendly....



n0kn0k -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/26/2016 5:31:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gaiuslaelius

From what I've read, it's 20. Just sayin.


Pardon me, I got mixed up. You are correct.
I remember a discussion about it from way back and both were mentioned.



gaiuslaelius -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/26/2016 6:59:46 AM)

I know what you're saying. I recall reading something on the game once that referenced 150 km per hex.



gaiuslaelius -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/26/2016 7:12:35 AM)

Although I'd submit that the problem is far more logistical than historical, your task force / battle group concept sounds spot on. The U.S. utilized the task force / task group system (Napoleon's Army Corps system at sea), the U.K. operated Force K out of Malta, and the Japanese had "The Striking Force" or "The Support Force". I'd like to hear more about your mod.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up (11/26/2016 8:50:02 AM)

quote:

I'd like to hear more about your mod.

I think it's pretty simplistic. First, remove all the Cruisers and Destroyers [except for the minor countries that only had one or two of these types and no capital ships]. Then create 'groups' by adding combat aspects of cruisers and destroyers to BB's and CC's, exception being the German Pocket Battleships which operate by themselves.

It could go a step further and combine these units into, for example, for the UK separate units comprising 'Force H' and 'Force W', etc. This type of change would then include multiple capital ships in one unit, and would greatly reduce the number of naval units, but might unbalance Germany. So I'm not keen on doing that.

Still in the thought process is Kirk's idea of reducing naval movement factors. I'm not too sure of that at this point. I'm also not an expert, by far, on naval warfare in games. In fact, I might just well be an idiot, but so far I like playing this much better than having all of those DD's and CC[L][A]'s to move around the board [;)]



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