Naval combat - a shame... (Full Version)

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The Land -> Naval combat - a shame... (11/26/2016 10:03:24 PM)

I am really liking this game, but naval combat really isn't working at all. It's too similar to ground combat. In reality;

1) Naval combat was far more compressed into space. You could fit a 200-ship fleet into one of this game's hexes. Was it too much to ask to have naval units be task forces rather than "ships"?

2) Detection was a bigger problem than the game thinks - it's far too easy to find and sink convoy raiders - and in the brief moments that your submarines or raiders aren't detected it's far too easy to attrite convoys.

3) The mechanics for surprise encounters might work for land warfare but frankly they are a joke for naval combat. If a submarine unexpectedly encountered a destroyer, it's very probable that the sub would see the destroyer without being seen - not end its turn in surprise and be pinned in place while the destroyer summoned 5 friends to finish off the submarine.

Any chance of this being improved in a patch....?



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/26/2016 10:31:16 PM)

quote:

not end its turn in surprise and be pinned in place

This part really bothers me, too. The same for land combat, at this scale positions were known, look at any SHAEF or German Lage situation maps and they knew where units were. Maybe not exact positions and compositions, but enough to know not to blunder aimlessly forward and then stop dead. [:@]



ILCK -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/27/2016 2:32:28 AM)

Well and the price of being stuck especially in naval combat usually results in death.

The ship speeds are way too high in the end and it is crazy easy to get abused by the carousel of death as ships hit and flee back to port.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/27/2016 3:14:34 AM)

There is also this type of situation that bugs me [screenshot]. Turn after turn I have tons of German assets not able to get rid of that pesky French sub [it's a good idea to conquer France if you don't want to see this happen].

I attack, it dives [yet stays in place] .. I attack, I take 3 losses he takes 1 ... I attack it dives ... I rotate units all the way back to Germany to get repaired ... I attack, it dives ... I picture all this activity in a fjord trying to find a sub.

Maybe I am overreacting, or maybe it is Saturday night [sm=00000436.gif] but maybe subs in these situations should actually dive and get the heck out of there [or maybe by attempting to dive run into the fjord and sink].

It's not just the fjord, we can surround subs in the open sea and they never dive away, they just stay put. [:(]

[image]local://upfiles/24850/9EC88A3D5F434F32AF054FDDAF7B4640.jpg[/image]



Hartmann -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/27/2016 9:44:32 AM)

Naval combat may not be very realistic, especially scale-wise, but after 15 years or so, Hubert finally managed to actually make it fun and that's what counts for me in the end.

About the subs not diving under enemies when they're surrounded, I have no problem seeing this as a rational abstraction. Sonar would track them when in the same hex as an enemy so they avoid that. And if there's no other way to go, they rather stay in place waiting instead of suicidally diving directly "under" enemy ships. The fjord then would be a deathtrap for a sub - IF you brought destroyers.



TheBattlefield -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/27/2016 12:10:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653


It's not just the fjord, we can surround subs in the open sea and they never dive away, they just stay put. [:(]




Yep. We have discussed this subject already in another thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4185949&mpage=1&key=�

I think that Hubert and Bill have made already a suitable note in this matter.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/27/2016 9:06:56 PM)

quote:

We have discussed this subject already in another thread.

Ah, I see. Thank you.
quote:

The fjord then would be a deathtrap for a sub - IF you brought destroyers.

In this mod my BB's and PB's include DD's [as they have the same anti-sub capabilities]. At least I think it works that way.



TheBattlefield -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/28/2016 7:54:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

We have discussed this subject already in another thread.

Ah, I see. Thank you.
quote:

The fjord then would be a deathtrap for a sub - IF you brought destroyers.

In this mod my BB's and PB's include DD's [as they have the same anti-sub capabilities]. At least I think it works that way.


Oh well. The longer I think about the naval warfare the more I become convinced that the naval units are more likely to be represented as a task force, mixed group, flotilla or wolf pack. And as a logical consequence these units should also be designated in this manner. If the battleship has become a battle group some sub-hunt ability seems logical. But I think it is even more important in these circumstances to allow a surrounded U-boat to have at least a chance-based probability of an outbreak. [8D]



Grotius -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/28/2016 2:34:51 PM)

I already do think of naval units as task forces. As for surrounded subs, do they have no chance to "dive" and escape a couple hexes away?



Goodmongo -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/28/2016 2:42:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

There is also this type of situation that bugs me [screenshot]. Turn after turn I have tons of German assets not able to get rid of that pesky French sub [it's a good idea to conquer France if you don't want to see this happen].




You do realize that BB's and other subs have terrible anti-sub statistics don't you? These are the worst ships to use when trying to sink an enemy sub.



DeriKuk -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/29/2016 5:47:53 PM)

One word: SCALE

This is a STRATEGIC level game. Do not see combat as a tactical contest. That's for other games.



Altermann -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/29/2016 6:34:28 PM)

Having just purchased this, I was originally quite impressed and pleased with it, however, ``Enemy Contact`` has put a slight damper on my excitement. Nothing more frustrating (on the sea AND on the land) than stopping in a hex, only to find out (with an Enemy Contact msg and partial destruction of your unit) that you have stopped NEXT to an enemy. I can see this if you drive right into the hex containing the enemy unit, ( but if you happen to stop beside I think there should be an opportunity for you to 1) withdraw, or 2) engage (possibly with a lower attack value) the unit. As The Land said, IRL, and especially in winter on the North Atlantic, the sub would likely not have engaged and could have passed unseen even within 2 miles of a Destroyer! I suppose when playing against the AI it does need some advantage, so I guess it can`t be helped, but when MP gets implemented, it would be nice if Enemy Contact were modified somehow



Hartmann -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/29/2016 6:51:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alermann

Having just purchased this, I was originally quite impressed and pleased with it, however, ``Enemy Contact`` has put a slight damper on my excitement. Nothing more frustrating (on the sea AND on the land) than stopping in a hex, only to find out (with an Enemy Contact msg and partial destruction of your unit) that you have stopped NEXT to an enemy. I can see this if you drive right into the hex containing the enemy unit, ( but if you happen to stop beside I think there should be an opportunity for you to 1) withdraw, or 2) engage (possibly with a lower attack value) the unit. As The Land said, IRL, and especially in winter on the North Atlantic, the sub would likely not have engaged and could have passed unseen even within 2 miles of a Destroyer! I suppose when playing against the AI it does need some advantage, so I guess it can`t be helped, but when MP gets implemented, it would be nice if Enemy Contact were modified somehow


"Enemy contact" has cost me alot of ships when I was still learning the game. The good thing about it, though, is that it really forces us to do reconnaissance with planes and subs or at least keep our task force close by while moving into the unknown with a single ship.



Ohf -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/29/2016 6:51:22 PM)

I agree its maybe too powerful. Right now the best way to win naval combat is to use a bait and then deploy a net of ships for the ennemy to run into. Very effective with subs + kriegsmarine



n0kn0k -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (11/29/2016 7:42:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ohf

I agree its maybe too powerful. Right now the best way to win naval combat is to use a bait and then deploy a net of ships for the ennemy to run into. Very effective with subs + kriegsmarine


Yes vs AI. No vs human players. [:D]



The Land -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (12/1/2016 1:07:53 PM)

How moddable is the game? Might it be possible to make naval units stack as a mod...?



Goodmongo -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (12/1/2016 3:11:06 PM)

Naval is fine IMO.



wie201 -> RE: Naval combat - a shame... (12/1/2016 3:16:42 PM)

I really like this game. But . . . I wouldn't mind an option to have naval combat abstracted. You can build what you want, and have options and/or a sliding scale for how aggressive you wish to be, and possibly zones (not hexes) you wish to concentrate in. Not being a programmer for decades, I understand that this probably is impossible. But arguments about how the status quo is fine given the scale of the game I think fall flat. Just my opinion. Still love it though! And love the comments on the forum.



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