Research speed (Full Version)

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Meteor2 -> Research speed (12/7/2016 11:14:07 AM)

Maybe the speed is to high. To have level 5 equipment in 1943 seems to be a little bit unbalanced.
Question: Are some 3D-pictures still missing? German planes of the different levels are nearly the same.
Has been nicer in previous versions. [;)]



Goodmongo -> RE: Research speed (12/7/2016 2:22:49 PM)

Some of it really depends on pure luck. If you have no breakthroughs it takes till 1945 to get level 5 stuff. The breakthroughs are what really speed things up and without that possibility no one would pick spying.



Ohf -> RE: Research speed (12/7/2016 3:55:45 PM)

In my new campaign (Axis), its September 1940 and UK has Advanced Aircraft 3 and is 20% toward lvl 4. I noticed when my fighters near Bruxelles got shreded from 10 to 3 in one turn. [:D]

I gave the AI +20% MPPs so it might explain this...but it feels a bit overpowered.

I wonder if its possible to mod and lock some tech levels before a fixed year. I wouldnt be surprised if the Brits have jet fighters in early 42 in my game. I know the tech allows for "what-if" scenarios, but it might be a little too fast sometimes. Too many breakthroughs ?



ILCK -> RE: Research speed (12/7/2016 5:12:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ohf

In my new campaign (Axis), its September 1940 and UK has Advanced Aircraft 3 and is 20% toward lvl 4. I noticed when my fighters near Bruxelles got shreded from 10 to 3 in one turn. [:D]

I gave the AI +20% MPPs so it might explain this...but it feels a bit overpowered.

I wonder if its possible to mod and lock some tech levels before a fixed year. I wouldnt be surprised if the Brits have jet fighters in early 42 in my game. I know the tech allows for "what-if" scenarios, but it might be a little too fast sometimes. Too many breakthroughs ?


My rude shock was the Soviets suddenly having Inf Weapons 2 in early 42 on all their newly deploying armies. Ouch.



Hartmann -> RE: Research speed (12/7/2016 5:16:28 PM)

I take this to come naturally with the increased difficulty setting. Why should they invest their additional MPP in reinforcements only? [:'(]



TheBattlefield -> RE: Research speed (12/7/2016 6:46:00 PM)

In principle, I welcome the opportunity to gain a tactical advantage by encouraging certain areas of research. I'm not sure if the audio-visual connection of jet aircraft to the last development stage is 100% consistent. Even if the campaigns can extend into the year 1947, jet aircraft have received a real meaning in the sense of a mass production or a standardized equipment for fighter and bomber squadrons only in the Korean War. Therefore it always feels a little strange when the jet planes begin to dominate the sky at the end of 1943. Personally, I would not mind if the flying standard units kept their propellers all the way through, and jet engines did not enter the campaign until 1944. As a individual unit, in small numbers and as a special development from level 5 onwards.



Ancient One -> RE: Research speed (12/7/2016 7:16:04 PM)

I think research in this game is currently a little too wild. I know the intent is to allow for a diversity of choices and outcomes, but it's not good if too much depends on too few random rolls, or too much accommodation is made for min-maxing. I hope research gets tightened up in later patches, or it may be a more balanced game with the research off.



James Taylor -> RE: Research speed (12/8/2016 12:23:41 AM)

Way to fast, we'll get an adjustment in the future.



jjdenver -> RE: Research speed (12/8/2016 12:17:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodmongo
Some of it really depends on pure luck. If you have no breakthroughs it takes till 1945 to get level 5 stuff. The breakthroughs are what really speed things up and without that possibility no one would pick spying.


I disagree, I regularly max out my important research in 42 or early 43 in multiple games in a row. It's too fast.



Goodmongo -> RE: Research speed (12/8/2016 2:19:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodmongo
Some of it really depends on pure luck. If you have no breakthroughs it takes till 1945 to get level 5 stuff. The breakthroughs are what really speed things up and without that possibility no one would pick spying.


I disagree, I regularly max out my important research in 42 or early 43 in multiple games in a row. It's too fast.



And how much of that is due to breakthroughs? Maybe the breakthrough chance is too high or your spying rate was way ahead of the other side which also increases research speed.

But do the simple check. See how much each tech advances without spying interference each turn. Ignore breakthroughs and you will see that it takes about a full year to research a full level. So for a level 5 research project that means 1944 is the target year to complete research without the impact of spying and breakthrough bonus. Seems about right to me.

And I can cite other situations where I got maybe 2 breakthroughs for an entire game. Your's and my extremely limited anecdotal evidence means nothing. What does the hard core math say and as far as I can tell it takes about a full year to research a level of technology with no spying impact.



itkotw2000 -> RE: Research speed (12/8/2016 3:04:09 PM)

Yes the research is either too fast, doesn't cost enough mpp, or there is just too much mpp in the game. Or it is a combination of all of those factors. If, for example, the Germans have three levels of infantry weapons (0,1,2) to last the whole game until 1945, does that mean if you have infantry weapons 2 in 1941 your troops have stg44s, g41s, g43s, MG42s, and panzerfausts? The research and the mpp levels still need some balance. There is no "either - or" decisions. You can build a ton of units AND research AND click the expensive event choices AND reinforce/upgrade all of your units. And the AI can do the same. In all of my games the AI has the same research levels as I do, even if I try my best to "get ahead". I end most of my games around Jan 1943, so I can try new things, but me and the AI of almost maxed out our research. Unit pools get maxed out early too, that is another area that needs balance. The German army didn't max out until early 1943, but it is possible to almost max in 1941. The AI can max-out too and have mpp to spare.



Capitaine -> RE: Research speed (12/8/2016 3:35:34 PM)

I've said before -- and I don't have a lot of play under my belt -- that research seems extremely fast, especially for nations not at war where feedback and motivation would be more limited. Given these other opinions I'd say there's a growing consensus that research really needs to be reined in and fine-tuned.



Goodmongo -> RE: Research speed (12/8/2016 3:43:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: itkotw

The AI can max-out too and have mpp to spare.


Not in any game I have ever played. They can't even keep up with air losses, especially the UK. And playing as the Allies Germany doesn't even get enough MPP to capture Minsk, Riga and barely makes it to Kiev.

It all comes down to how many units are you damaging and destroying each turn. Yea if losses are very limited you have enough MPP, but if doing it right you can easily starve the other side of MPP. Adding 1 mobility to 10 HQ's is 1000 MPP right there.

Besides if you really think there is too much you can always adjust the difficulty settings to get the game that best fits your play style.

Finally, I think it's great that the AI doesn't let you get that far ahead in research. Why should it? So if you are going for INF weapons by 1941 the AI should do it too. Remember the SU needs INF weapons 3 to be equal.



itkotw2000 -> RE: Research speed (12/8/2016 5:06:50 PM)

I loaded up one of my old saves to check the research and unit pools of the allies (I only have played axis so far).

The major unit pools as of June 28, 1942 - British can still build 2 armies and 3 tanks, but no corps; the Russians have maxed out their corps/armies/tanks (they have a 1945 sized army in 1942); the US can still build 2 armies and 6 tanks (corps maxed out). So most of the allied countries, especially Russia, have nearly maxed out the size of their army in the first year or two of the war.

Research wise, if we look at Infantry weapons/advanced tanks/advanced aircraft, the research levels for the allies is - Britain 2/2 inf weapons, 2/5 adv tanks, 3/5 adv aircraft; US 1/2 inf, 1/5 tank, 3/5 air; Russia 2/3 inf, 2/5 tank, 3/5 air.

Mpps for the allies in this turn (either income or saved) - Britain 374, US 1314, Russia 1777.

So from these numbers, we can see that Russia has maxed out its army size one year after the war started, is 50% of the way to having 1945 levels of research, and has mpp to spare. Both Britain and the US are in worse shape, but most of their unit pools are at nearly the max levels (US has enough mpp to nearly max its pool this turn). If the AI would stop using mpps to move units operationally, their research and unit levels would be even higher (AI loves to shuffle units).

In my other post I just wanted to address the fact that there are so many mpps that the player (or AI) doesnt have to really make a hard choice whether to build units, keep research going, or choose "NO" for an expensive event decision. There is no "either-or" type decisions. I think historically, Russia didn't worry about "research" much early in the war, they just tried to pump out units to replace losses. If the player (or AI) wants to get ahead in research instead of doing X, there should be some give and take. This makes for more variety and replayability.



Goodmongo -> RE: Research speed (12/8/2016 6:41:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: itkotw

Mpps for the allies in this turn (either income or saved) - Britain 374, US 1314, Russia 1777.

.


If Russia has this high of a MPP that means you have not got that far in and definitely not taken Moscow and most likely haven't impacted the Murmansk route either.

By June 1942 I have Egypt taken and either have gone south to take Stalingrad and the Caucasus or have Moscow and Leningrad. I also kill about 5-10 units a turn against the SU. So yea they should have all that as it appears you are not killing things fast enough and not hurting their MPP much at all.



Hartmann -> RE: Research speed (12/8/2016 6:55:38 PM)

I am worried. I have seen too many "x has to be nerfed" discussions in my gaming life where a fun feature was eventually nerfed to death.



EisenHammer -> RE: Research speed (12/9/2016 1:19:54 AM)

In my game as the Axis the British and Americans were hitting me with jet fighters and bombers by the end of 1943.



warspite1 -> RE: Research speed (12/9/2016 6:26:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

In my game as the Axis the British and Americans were hitting me with jet fighters and bombers by the end of 1943.
warspite1

That is not good. That does not make for a fun WWII game [:(]



Hartmann -> RE: Research speed (12/9/2016 9:21:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

In my game as the Axis the British and Americans were hitting me with jet fighters and bombers by the end of 1943.


Was that on normal difficulty or did you give the AI an MPP advantage? I ask because I've personally only seen this on higher difficulty yet - the AI is not restricted in how they actually USE their MPPs. The game should be balanced for normal difficulty, though. If research would be balanced for higher difficulties, the AI would severly underperform on "normal".



EisenHammer -> RE: Research speed (12/9/2016 11:26:06 AM)

Veteran difficulty to the end of 1941 then I removed the AI MPP advantage.
The AI is really good in this game. lol



Hartmann -> RE: Research speed (12/9/2016 11:39:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

Veteran difficulty to the end of 1941 then I removed the AI MPP advantage.
The AI is really good in this game. lol


Ah, ok, then the cause is what I suspected it to be. I think the problem we face here is not a "research balance" problem per se, but rather that there is only one currency (MPPs) for everything and that the higher difficulty levels just provide the AI with more MPP. When players up the difficulty, they probably intend to just have the AI hit harder, defend better or replace their losses more easily. But in this game, it will automatically result in the AI also researching faster on higher difficulties because there is no limitation on how they spend their additional MPP.



Goodmongo -> RE: Research speed (12/9/2016 2:13:14 PM)

See I don't get this. Players give the AI extra MPP and change it to make the game harder. But then it seems they complain when the AI has better research, thus making the game harder.



EisenHammer -> RE: Research speed (12/9/2016 3:17:13 PM)

Even with the 10% extra MPP the Allied AI should not have Jet fighters and bombers in 1943, it's not really that hard to understand.



Hartmann -> RE: Research speed (12/9/2016 4:24:12 PM)

The only way I see this could be at all changed without unbalancing the research on normal difficulty is to radically change how difficulty is modified in this game, i.e. not tying it to MPP gain at all, but rather giving combat bonuses/maluses, diplo bonuses/maluses etc instead. The advantage of this would be that difficulty could be customized on many variables (research speed still among them btw if there were adjustable bonuses/maluses to percentage gained per turn). Coming to think of it, MPP gain bonuses could still be included in such a customizable difficulty panel.

However: Giving the AI combat bonuses is - at the end of the day - not much different from allowing it faster research because providing combat bonuses is exactly what upgrading a unit does.




Goodmongo -> RE: Research speed (12/9/2016 4:25:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

Even with the 10% extra MPP the Allied AI should not have Jet fighters and bombers in 1943, it's not really that hard to understand.


Why not? They had a prototype back then. Me-262 flew in 1942. If they concentrate on this tech and get a breakthrough or two you can get it by then. After all mid- late 1943 is just 1 year ahead of when it would normally come without any impact from spying.

EDIT: Plus the AI is picking this tech over other techs. And it makes sense for US to do this as fighters and air power are the main weapons employed by the US before land forces are built up.



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