Spain always joins Axis (Full Version)

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vaalen -> Spain always joins Axis (12/17/2016 4:49:50 PM)

I have started a number of games as the Allies. By the middle of 1941, Spain always enters the war on the part of the Axis, and immediately goes after Gibraltar.

I can put an army there, and it can hold off Spanish attacks, but it is often impossible to reinforce this unit, for reasons i do not understand. What I have to do is use precious MPPs to shuttle fresh units in, and take the damaged army out before it collapses due to its inability to get reinforcements. Sometimes the game allows me to reinforce the army up to a strength of eight, but at some point it will not let me do any reinforcing at all, no matter how weak the army is. Of course, this greatly interfere with my ability to reinforce North Africa.

Historically, the most the Spanish did was to send a division of volunteers to fight the Russians. They never joined the war.

And yes, I use every diplomatic chit I can commit,as soon as I have enough MPPS to commitr
them, and Spain still joins the Axis in 41.

Seems like a bug that should be fixed.



xwormwood -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/17/2016 5:01:31 PM)

The reinforcement "problem" is connected to the standard supply rules, so no bug on this front.



n0kn0k -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/17/2016 5:49:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vaalen

I have started a number of games as the Allies. By the middle of 1941, Spain always enters the war on the part of the Axis, and immediately goes after Gibraltar.

I can put an army there, and it can hold off Spanish attacks, but it is often impossible to reinforce this unit, for reasons i do not understand. What I have to do is use precious MPPs to shuttle fresh units in, and take the damaged army out before it collapses due to its inability to get reinforcements. Sometimes the game allows me to reinforce the army up to a strength of eight, but at some point it will not let me do any reinforcing at all, no matter how weak the army is. Of course, this greatly interfere with my ability to reinforce North Africa.

Historically, the most the Spanish did was to send a division of volunteers to fight the Russians. They never joined the war.

And yes, I use every diplomatic chit I can commit,as soon as I have enough MPPS to commitr
them, and Spain still joins the Axis in 41.

Seems like a bug that should be fixed.


There are several scripts that can push Spain towards the Axis.

First is the fall of France.

; Event for increased Spanish mobilization:
{
#NAME= Franco Swings Towards The Axis On The Fall Of France (Spain->Axis)
#POPUP= Franco Swings Towards The Axis On The Fall Of France
#IMAGE=
#SOUND=
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 1
#AI= 0
#GV= 1[1,100]
#LINK= 0[0]
#LEVEL= 0
#COUNTRY_ID= 99
#TRIGGER= 100
#DATE= 1939/09/01
;20-25% mobilization increase towards Axis
#MOBILIZATION= [20,25] [1]
; Set variable conditions:
; 1st Line - France politically aligned with Allies and surrendered
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 40 [2] [100] [1]
}

Did you declare war on any countries as the Allies?

; Allies Declare War on Italy resulting in a random 10-15% increase in Spain mobilization toward Axis:
; Allies Declare War on Belgium resulting in a random 10-15% increase in Spanish mobilization toward Axis:
; Allies Declare War on Ireland resulting in a random 10-15% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Axis:
; Allies Declare War on Algeria resulting in an 5-7% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Axis:


Did you put USA ships near Spain? This one is easily forgotten.

; US naval units near Spain 25-35% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Axis

Did you lose in Africa?

; Axis successes in Egypt inspire Franco 6-12% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Axis:



ILCK -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/17/2016 5:51:54 PM)

It doesn't always happen. I have played as Axis and Allies and Spain doesn't always join.

If anything, the Swedes are a bigger issue since a minor expenditure of MPP can turn the Swedes toward the Allies and at that point they cease sending iron to Germany.



Hartmann -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/17/2016 6:13:11 PM)

I never had it happen when playing the Allies, though I wish it would for once so I could play out this variant. Maybe I'll have to provoke Spain more ...



Yogol -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/17/2016 6:17:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ILCK

It doesn't always happen. I have played as Axis and Allies and Spain doesn't always join.

If anything, the Swedes are a bigger issue since a minor expenditure of MPP can turn the Swedes toward the Allies and at that point they cease sending iron to Germany.


Yes, but the difference is that it is not a big loss if Sweden doesn't join the Axis willingly. If you have to invade Sweden, it's good too.

But invading Spain is bad for Germany. Not only does it takes longer than invading Sweden (and you also have to use German troops to invade Gibraltar and Portugal), you miss out on the Spanish forces: they have quite a lot of armies and corpses, where Sweden doesn't.



BillRunacre -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/17/2016 7:40:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vaalen

I can put an army there, and it can hold off Spanish attacks, but it is often impossible to reinforce this unit, for reasons i do not understand.


Hi vaalen

Just to add to the other comments, could it be that the Axis are damaging Gibraltar itself (assuming that is the place you have a unit that you are trying to reinforce) with Heavy Artillery, Rockets, Strategic Bombers or ship bombardment?

Alternatively, if a unit is surrounded then it can only reinforce to a maximum of 5, so if the enemy are adjacent to your unit in Gibraltar then it will be effectively surrounded, and therefore unable to reinforce beyond 5.

Hopefully one of these might explain it?



The Land -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/17/2016 10:59:36 PM)

I'm just playing my 2nd game as Allies, and the first game that has lasted into 1942 at all.

In the first game, Spain stayed historically neutral. In this second game, the Axis seemed to be "ahead of schedule" on all diplomacy with Italy entering the war early and Spain joining in Summer 41.

I do share the OP's frustrations about how this plays out. Spain has an easy time plugging away at Gibraltar with one perpetually reinforced Spanish army (that gets upgraded with Germany tech) and British reinforcement is limited by supply.... By contrast, the British have a very hard time taking Tangeir on the other side of the Straits with a Corps, an Army, a Special Forces and a Tac - even with the Royal Navy dominating the straits of Gibraltar. To my mind, given naval dominance, Britain should have an easier time taking Tangier than Spain does Gibraltar.

Equally, to be fair, it would have been easier to keep swapping units into Gibraltar if the British hadn't been insistent on holding every scrap of ground in Greece. Indeed, if it weren't for the Greek front lasting all of 1941 then the British might well have landed at Bilbao already....




vaalen -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 12:53:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: n0kn0k




There are several scripts that can push Spain towards the Axis.

First is the fall of France.

; Event for increased Spanish mobilization:
{
#NAME= Franco Swings Towards The Axis On The Fall Of France (Spain->Axis)
#POPUP= Franco Swings Towards The Axis On The Fall Of France
#IMAGE=
#SOUND=
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 1
#AI= 0
#GV= 1[1,100]
#LINK= 0[0]
#LEVEL= 0
#COUNTRY_ID= 99
#TRIGGER= 100
#DATE= 1939/09/01
;20-25% mobilization increase towards Axis
#MOBILIZATION= [20,25] [1]
; Set variable conditions:
; 1st Line - France politically aligned with Allies and surrendered
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 40 [2] [100] [1]
}

Did you declare war on any countries as the Allies?

; Allies Declare War on Italy resulting in a random 10-15% increase in Spain mobilization toward Axis:
; Allies Declare War on Belgium resulting in a random 10-15% increase in Spanish mobilization toward Axis:
; Allies Declare War on Ireland resulting in a random 10-15% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Axis:
; Allies Declare War on Algeria resulting in an 5-7% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Axis:


Did you put USA ships near Spain? This one is easily forgotten.

; US naval units near Spain 25-35% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Axis

Did you lose in Africa?

; Axis successes in Egypt inspire Franco 6-12% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Axis:


I appreciate this information, which is very valuable.

The only one of the above that applies to my games has been the Fall of France, which always happens by the end of 1940, if not sooner.



vaalen -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 1:07:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre


quote:

ORIGINAL: vaalen

I can put an army there, and it can hold off Spanish attacks, but it is often impossible to reinforce this unit, for reasons i do not understand.


Hi vaalen

Just to add to the other comments, could it be that the Axis are damaging Gibraltar itself (assuming that is the place you have a unit that you are trying to reinforce) with Heavy Artillery, Rockets, Strategic Bombers or ship bombardment?

Alternatively, if a unit is surrounded then it can only reinforce to a maximum of 5, so if the enemy are adjacent to your unit in Gibraltar then it will be effectively surrounded, and therefore unable to reinforce beyond 5.

Hopefully one of these might explain it?


Hi Bill,

Well, the Spanish did not attack the port with the units you mention, but they did keep a unit right next to Gibraltar, which does explain why it cannot reinforce beyond five.

But it would seem to me that the British would be able to bring supplies into Gibraltar by sea,along with reinforcements.

The way things are, there is no way the British can keep Gibraltar except by shuttling units in and out, and that stops working once the Spanish upgrade their troops, which they do. Once they have done that, a new unit shuttled in will be quickly destroyed, because it will have no entrenchment value on the turn it is shuttled in. I lost a full strength army, weapons level 2, in two turns, as the Spanish shifted their level 1 infantry to make multiple attacks. The army lost five the first turn of attacks, could not be reinforced, and was destroyed on the very next turn.

I lost Gibraltar in early 42, and that is a huge problem, as my ships and transports cannot get into or out of the Med, and the Afrika corps and the Italians are hammering the defensive line at El Alamein without mercy.

Do you or anyone have any idea how to hold Gibraltar, once the Spanish enter and their troops get upgraded?



vaalen -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 1:14:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

I'm just playing my 2nd game as Allies, and the first game that has lasted into 1942 at all.

In the first game, Spain stayed historically neutral. In this second game, the Axis seemed to be "ahead of schedule" on all diplomacy with Italy entering the war early and Spain joining in Summer 41.

I do share the OP's frustrations about how this plays out. Spain has an easy time plugging away at Gibraltar with one perpetually reinforced Spanish army (that gets upgraded with Germany tech) and British reinforcement is limited by supply.... By contrast, the British have a very hard time taking Tangeir on the other side of the Straits with a Corps, an Army, a Special Forces and a Tac - even with the Royal Navy dominating the straits of Gibraltar. To my mind, given naval dominance, Britain should have an easier time taking Tangier than Spain does Gibraltar.

Equally, to be fair, it would have been easier to keep swapping units into Gibraltar if the British hadn't been insistent on holding every scrap of ground in Greece. Indeed, if it weren't for the Greek front lasting all of 1941 then the British might well have landed at Bilbao already....




Yes, it is frustrating.

This is great information, as I have been forming an expeditionary force to take Tangier as a way of opening up the Med. Looks like I will need a much bigger force than I thought. Appreciate the insight!



Yogol -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 2:08:21 AM)

I do not know if you have ever been to Gibraltar, but it is pretty much impossible to defend from a land attack. Aside from a huge rock on the south side, there is simply nothing that works in the defender's advantage. Not to mention that it lies on the south-side of a bay that is a perfect staging area of an amphibious attack.

To me, it seems pretty accurate to say that Gibraltar would fall fast under Spain's attacks.

(plus: on the game map, Gibraltar is very strategically placed, but in reality, it is not placed like that: the Spanish land north of Gibraltar lies closer to Africa than Gibraltar)



Steely Glint -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 2:57:43 AM)

My opinion is that the script modifiers affecting Spain need to have their positive Axis component values reduced very significantly. As soon as I figure out how to mod this game, I will do that for my own games.



PorcelainBus -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 8:42:39 AM)

I played my first game as Allies - difficulty Veteran but no experience bonus - Spain joined the Axis the turn after France went Vichy - late August 1940.
Gibralter fell next turn as they obliterated my Garrison unit - thought about starting again but ended up playing it out and was a comprehensive Allied win with Berlin falling early 1944.
Axis made no progress in Africa or Russia - Brits invaded Spain in 1942 and US/UK were able to invade France in 1942 as well.
So after having read some AA reports where the Axis performs well in USSR and Africa was wondering whether the Spanish very early entry somehow affected the AI?? German units that should have been in USSR acting as Garrison units in Spain or some such - as in USSR apart from Kiev control going back and forth Axis progress was very poor.
PS - Italy declared was on Greece (1941 i think?) without German support and Greece managed to last half a year (including having UK units sent to bolster the defence.)



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 8:45:31 AM)

quote:

US naval units near Spain 25-35% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Axis

I couldn't find this in any of the manuals [:(]
What is the distance ?



n0kn0k -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 9:09:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

US naval units near Spain 25-35% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Axis

I couldn't find this in any of the manuals [:(]
What is the distance ?


; US naval units near Spain
; 25-35% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Axis
{
#NAME= US Naval Aggression Near Spain (Spain->Axis)
#POPUP= Spain Alarmed Over Local US Naval Activity
#IMAGE=
#SOUND=
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 1
#AI= 0
#GV= 1[1,100]
#LINK= 0[0]
#LEVEL= 0
#COUNTRY_ID= 99
#TRIGGER= 50
#DATE= 1939/09/01
; 10-15% mobilization increase towards Axis
#MOBILIZATION= [10,15] [1]
; Set variable conditions:
; 1st Line - USA politically aligned with Allies (not fully active) and not surrendered
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 115 [2] [0] [0]
; US has 1 naval unit within 1 hex of Bilbao port OR
#CONDITION_POSITION= 141,97 [1,1] [1,1] [2] [115]
; US has 1 naval unit within 1 hex of Lisbon port OR
#CONDITION_POSITION= 127,108 [1,1] [1,1] [2] [115]
; US has 1 naval unit within 1 hex of Valencia port OR
#CONDITION_POSITION= 146,107 [1,1] [1,1] [2] [115]
; US has 1 naval unit within 1 hex of Barcelona port OR
#CONDITION_POSITION= 151,102 [1,1] [1,1] [2] [115]
}



BillRunacre -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 9:32:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land
I do share the OP's frustrations about how this plays out. Spain has an easy time plugging away at Gibraltar with one perpetually reinforced Spanish army (that gets upgraded with Germany tech) and British reinforcement is limited by supply.... By contrast, the British have a very hard time taking Tangeir on the other side of the Straits with a Corps, an Army, a Special Forces and a Tac - even with the Royal Navy dominating the straits of Gibraltar. To my mind, given naval dominance, Britain should have an easier time taking Tangier than Spain does Gibraltar.



Do you have a British HQ there too?

Even with it, it won't necessarily be easy but without one then it will be a very difficult if the initial landing doesn't take the town.



BillRunacre -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 9:41:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

US naval units near Spain 25-35% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Axis

I couldn't find this in any of the manuals [:(]
What is the distance ?


This script relates to activity of US ships prior to the US entrance into the war.

Looking at it again I am not sure it's necessary as most of the US navy only deploys when it enters the war, rather than before.

At the same time, this script is unlikely to have had any impact because of that same fact.

I think to really understand whether any movements in Spain's position are wrong I'll need to know more about why it is joining the Axis in the games where it does, e.g.

Are the Axis taking Algiers? If so then they have an opportunity to entice Franco into the war.
Are the Axis using diplomacy to bring Spain into the war? If so, are the Allies attempting to counter this diplomacy.
Are any of the events n0kn0k has listed above taking place?

Thanks



BillRunacre -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 9:43:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PorcelainBus

I played my first game as Allies - difficulty Veteran but no experience bonus - Spain joined the Axis the turn after France went Vichy - late August 1940.


Hi

Do you remember if the AI was investing heavily in diplomacy against Spain?

There should have been reports of this in the event summaries when they had diplomatic successes.

Thanks



Hartmann -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 11:19:47 AM)

As said I didn't encounter this myself yet, but for what it's worth: One of the strategic aims of getting Spain into the Axis SHOULD be the control of Gibraltar. So IF Spain becomes a member of the Axis, this should without doubt be achievable, so I don't see a need for introducing artificial obstacles to that.

The real problem rather seems to be that having Spain join the Axis is too easy to achieve for the Axis if they want to, and this again seems to have to do with the Allies not countering diplo-moves towards Spain decisively enough.



The Land -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 11:52:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land
I do share the OP's frustrations about how this plays out. Spain has an easy time plugging away at Gibraltar with one perpetually reinforced Spanish army (that gets upgraded with Germany tech) and British reinforcement is limited by supply.... By contrast, the British have a very hard time taking Tangeir on the other side of the Straits with a Corps, an Army, a Special Forces and a Tac - even with the Royal Navy dominating the straits of Gibraltar. To my mind, given naval dominance, Britain should have an easier time taking Tangier than Spain does Gibraltar.



Do you have a British HQ there too?

Even with it, it won't necessarily be easy but without one then it will be a very difficult if the initial landing doesn't take the town.


That's a good point, actually. I tried to send one via the Red Sea to South Atlantic transit but it never appeared.... a bug?



PorcelainBus -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 2:05:07 PM)

yes - i think there were a few messages about Spain moving toward the Allies



vaalen -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 4:04:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre


quote:

ORIGINAL: PorcelainBus

I played my first game as Allies - difficulty Veteran but no experience bonus - Spain joined the Axis the turn after France went Vichy - late August 1940.


Hi

Do you remember if the AI was investing heavily in diplomacy against Spain?

There should have been reports of this in the event summaries when they had diplomatic successes.

Thanks


In my games, the only event that happened was the fall of France, and the declaration of Vichy France.

But I did get a number of messages that Spain was moving to the Axis. And, starting with my second game, I had Britain invest the maximum allows number of chits in Diplomacy, on Spain, as early as I had the MPPS to do so. It had no effect. Spain still joined the Axis shortly after the fall of France and the establishment of Vichy France.



BillRunacre -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 7:19:09 PM)

Thanks for the feedback everyone, and if any of you find Spain joining the Axis through diplomacy at an early time, such as in vaalen's game when it occured on the fall of France, if you have a save turn from before Spain joins the Axis I would be very interested to take a look. [:)]

Thanks

bill.runacre@furysoftware.com

PS If you do email me a save, ideally zipped, please mention in the email the reason for sending it, as I receive quite a lot of saves about different things.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/18/2016 8:48:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol


quote:

ORIGINAL: ILCK

It doesn't always happen. I have played as Axis and Allies and Spain doesn't always join.

If anything, the Swedes are a bigger issue since a minor expenditure of MPP can turn the Swedes toward the Allies and at that point they cease sending iron to Germany.


Yes, but the difference is that it is not a big loss if Sweden doesn't join the Axis willingly. If you have to invade Sweden, it's good too.

But invading Spain is bad for Germany. Not only does it takes longer than invading Sweden (and you also have to use German troops to invade Gibraltar and Portugal), you miss out on the Spanish forces: they have quite a lot of armies and corpses, where Sweden doesn't.


BTW the plural of "Corp" is "Corps" and the "p" is silent in both cases, just saying. A corp is a military unit containing two or more divisions. A corpse is a dead body.



Steely Glint -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/19/2016 7:12:56 AM)

quote:

BTW the plural of "Corp" is "Corps" and the "p" is silent in both cases, just saying. A corp is a military unit containing two or more divisions. A corpse is a dead body.


Nonsense! "Corps" is both the singular and the plural form, although they are pronunced differently (kor vs korz). Trust me, I did enough paperwork to know.

See

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/corps-plural-singular

for details.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/19/2016 7:43:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Steely Glint

quote:

BTW the plural of "Corp" is "Corps" and the "p" is silent in both cases, just saying. A corp is a military unit containing two or more divisions. A corpse is a dead body.


Nonsense! "Corps" is both the singular and the plural form, although they are pronunced differently (kor vs korz). Trust me, I did enough paperwork to know.

See

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/corps-plural-singular

for details.


Oops! I think I may stand corrected, but the "p" is most definitely silent in both cases! It's never "corpse"!



Hartmann -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/19/2016 9:46:32 AM)

It's all Napoleon's fault! [:D]



Goodmongo -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/19/2016 2:42:32 PM)

Two points on Spain joining the Axis.

1) If you don't want it you better invest diplomacy against it. So at the first warning spend the MPP to reverse or stop it.
2) If Spain does change then so what. Makes for an easy invasion site for the US to land on in early 1943.

Played a game as US/UK and Spain when Axis. So I invaded Spain and then easily crept up into France.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Spain always joins Axis (12/19/2016 3:27:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodmongo

Two points on Spain joining the Axis.

1) If you don't want it you better invest diplomacy against it. So at the first warning spend the MPP to reverse or stop it.
2) If Spain does change then so what. Makes for an easy invasion site for the US to land on in early 1943.

Played a game as US/UK and Spain when Axis. So I invaded Spain and then easily crept up into France.


I was thinking this too, Sweeden would be a better long-term ally for the Axis, perhaps?



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