Help Italy (Full Version)

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ILCK -> Help Italy (12/20/2016 10:49:45 PM)

One thing I have learned playing as the Allies is how easy putting Italy out of the war is mop up NOrth Africa sink a couple of ships, land in Sicily and blammo. The loss of the Italian troops blows open the eastern front. Their units aren't that good but they at least take up space. The AI - neither German or Italian -seems to understand the threat of losing Sicily and the defense is ranges from pathetic to non-existent.



Hartmann -> RE: Help Italy (12/21/2016 10:09:03 PM)

Yeah, I think I had suggested somewhere before that

1) when Italy folds, their troops in Russia should not just disappear, but become German controlled (with just the HQs disappearing). Otherwise we get the "chain reaction" you describe.
2) it is too easy to have Italy surrender by just make a small landing in Northern Italy. I had a game where they held the line at Monte Casino firmly after Husky, but simply resigned once I (rather desperately) shipped two or three units up North to land there. Then the chain reaction occurred with the Eastern front collapsing because the Italian units disappeared.



BillRunacre -> RE: Help Italy (12/22/2016 5:48:20 PM)

Hi Hartmann

With 1) I seem to recall that when Italy surrendered in 1943, partisans were able to take advantage of this and secure lots of territory in Yugoslavia and Albania:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_in_Yugoslavia#Italian_capitulation_and_Allied_support_for_the_Partisans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_resistance_during_World_War_II#Between_Italy.27s_surrender_and_German_occupation

If Italian units are on anti-partisan duty elsewhere in occupied territory when their country surrenders, I'm not sure why it would be any different?

Those resisting Axis rule would surely do their best to gain from the situation, whether it be in Yugoslavia, France or the USSR, even if it were to be just relieving the Italian soldiers of their weapons and sending them on their way.



Hartmann -> RE: Help Italy (12/22/2016 7:20:39 PM)

I was not thinking of partisans, though. I was thinking of a situation where I am playing the Allies, like ILCK described. I agree with him that when the AI Axis Eastern frontline is containing a sizeable number of Italian troops, this frontline seems too prone to immediately dissolve once Italy folds, so that when we have knocked Italy out of the game (wich because of #2 is too easy), the game is basically over as we can overrun the Eastern front with the Russians next. Maybe the effect would be less abrupt if the AI were better at retreat and shortening of lines, though.



BillRunacre -> RE: Help Italy (12/22/2016 8:23:47 PM)

Understood, the effect of an Italian surrender in triggering partisans in the USSR was mentioned in a different thread recently so that's been on my mind.

However, I think that the real issue might be with Italy itself rather than what happens elsewhere, and it may be that some tweaks might be required.



macroeconomics -> RE: Help Italy (12/23/2016 7:21:23 AM)

IRL, once Italy signed an armistice with the Allies, the Germans immediately disarmed all Italian troops on the Eastern Front. So in game terms, they did disappear.

Solution is probably:
A) AI never sends more then 2 Italian ground units to Russia, reducing the effect of that "dissolve"
B) use the extra troops to defend Sicily/Italy




Klydon -> RE: Help Italy (12/23/2016 2:41:02 PM)

Yes, this is likely an issue for the AI.

First, the game seems to have more Italian troops in the east as a percentage of Axis forces than what "feels" like normal. Suddenly losing them presents an issue. The other issue is the Italian forces are probably more capable in this game than in many or from a historical context. (This is a common happening for games that the Italians do better than historical; likely because players are aware of the huge number of Italian historical mistakes and try to avoid those, but the combat record of the Italian armed forces during WW2 is spotty at best).

One correction could be that the AI uses Italian forces on the eastern front more as of a anti partisan-rear area force rather than having a chunk of the front line.

As others have mentioned, pretty much the Italian forces were there one day and just gone the next. They basically left and tried to go home since the war was over as far as they were concerned.



ILCK -> RE: Help Italy (12/24/2016 11:21:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: macroeconomics

IRL, once Italy signed an armistice with the Allies, the Germans immediately disarmed all Italian troops on the Eastern Front. So in game terms, they did disappear.

Solution is probably:
A) AI never sends more then 2 Italian ground units to Russia, reducing the effect of that "dissolve"
B) use the extra troops to defend Sicily/Italy





To me this is the issue. The Italians have a large, presence in the East and to ha e 8-10 units evaporate on the front lines is hard to overcome.



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