Low performing Bf-109s (Full Version)

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EddyBear81 -> Low performing Bf-109s (12/23/2016 9:13:55 AM)

We started this discussion on Gunnulf very interesting AAR, but I don't want to pollute it, so let's continue here (if anyone will listen... Helpless, maybe ?)

I have noticed that the LW is pretty poor already in 1943, and especially the Bf-109 (G6 version) who do not seem to be performing well. This raises two questions:
- Is the LW underpowered in 1943 ?
- Why does the Bf-109 underperform, compared to FW-190 for example (but in some instances I have found Romanian aircraft performing better than Bf-109s !)
=> I am not especially complaining about game design: I just want to understand if there is a "correct" way to use the main LW workhorse so that I don't get trashed ;-)

As a example, I have attached an log file of Aircraft performance of the Bf-109 vs:
- Spit VIII: O kills - 3 losses
- Spit LFIX: 0-1
- Spit VB: 3-35 (against the worst Spit variant !)
- Spit IX: 4-23
- Spit VC: 0-18
- P38G/H: 1-8
- P47D-5: 2-9
... Or 9-74 in total, all that for...
... no bombers destroyed !



HunterICX -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/23/2016 10:07:11 AM)

The BF109 G6 is quite a disaster if you ask me, compared to the G2 it was just made heavier (armor, cannons) but didn't bother to upgrade the engine, historically even Galland written it of as one of aircraft he really didn't like. Later variants of the G6 which came around in late spring 44 which was the G6/U2 (note: there's a '43 variant called the G6/U2 as well but that's just a regular G6 with a wooden tail used on the eastern front exclusively iirc) and the G6/AS which had different engines and the MW-50 injection fixed some of the performance flaws to meet the requirements needed to deal with the Allied war efforts in the Air around that time.



Denniss -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/23/2016 10:16:21 AM)

For much of it's production life the G-2's engine was limited in power output due to engine problems, those should have been fixed for G-6 production cycle. The /U2 was actually a G-6 with GM-1 injection system.
Both G-2 and G-6 should be equal to Spit VB/VC performance. No idea why they performed that bad in your example - maybe pilot experience or their use is set up with too low alt so they have to climb to intercept.



Helpless -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/23/2016 10:20:44 AM)

quote:

- Is the LW underpowered in 1943 ?


I don't think so. Check Torch scenario where LW can make WA players crying.

quote:

- Why does the Bf-109 underperform, compared to FW-190 for example (but in some instances I have found Romanian aircraft performing better than Bf-109s !)


It really depends how you comparing them. In your example Fw-190 is almost invisible.

quote:


As a example, I have attached an log file of Aircraft performance of the Bf-109 vs:


Agan, it really depends how you are using them. Were they lost in AS battles or fighting escorts?

In your example bf-109 made most damage point of all single seat fighters.

I could say more if it is possible to look at the save file and run air execution.



EddyBear81 -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/23/2016 10:39:27 AM)

Thanks for the quick answers guys.
Helpless, you're right, the Bf-109s are a nightmare in the Torch scenario ! The question is why do they kill Spits so easily in Africa and get destroyed when flying over Germany (by the same planes it appears) ?
>> How do other players use the Bf-109 in Northern Europe in 1943 ?

(Please note that I am not looking to prove that the system is "wrong" or whatever: WITW is by far my favorite wargame, and now I look at other games I used to play as childish simplifications, so thumbs up for the dev team !)

Can you tell me how to upload a save, it says the file format is "not supported" (it's a PBEM game). Thanks a lot for taking time to look into it !!



loki100 -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/23/2016 10:51:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EddyBear81

....
Can you tell me how to upload a save, it says the file format is "not supported" (it's a PBEM game). Thanks a lot for taking time to look into it !!


one easy way is to use wetransfer: https://wetransfer.com/

simply drop your file into the section on the left hand of the screen. It'll upload it and generate a url which is a link to the file (it expires in a week), simply paste that link here and anyone can grab the file.

Don't upgrade to the paid version, the free to use one is all you need.



[image]local://upfiles/43256/72F7BFCCF4084C938625CFF99A0A66FE.jpg[/image]



Helpless -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/23/2016 10:53:15 AM)

quote:

Can you tell me how to upload a save, it says the file format is "not supported" (it's a PBEM game). Thanks a lot for taking time to look into it !!


You can also zip it and attach to the post (I think it should be in Tech Support section) or send it to 2by3@2by3games.com




rjs28023 -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/23/2016 10:56:53 AM)

The Bf-109G-6 is probably always going to be fighting outnumbered.

The three factors most important in air-to-air combat are Maneuver Rating, Maximum Speed and Climb Rate.

The Bf-109G-6 (on Paper) is superior to many aircraft especially the Spitfire Vb.

Maneuver Rating: 35
Maximum Speed: 400
Climb Rate: 3,400' per minute
Maximum Speed Altitude: 21,000'

Spitfire Vb

Maneuver Rating: 34
Maximum Speed: 378
Climb Rate: 2,800' per minute
Maximum Speed Altitude: 18,000'

You cannot expect good results when 30 109G-6s are fighting 100 Spitfires. Losses will be lopsided against you. I also set my 109G-6s to Rest when Morale and Fatigue are too high They must be close to optimal with almost 0 Fatigue and Morale as near to the Experience Level as possible.

I also like to remove the drop tank to limit the fights my 109G-6's can be drawn into with the longer range.

I have also noticed that the armament of the 109G-6 normally damages enemy fighters, but doesn't always bring them down like the Focke-Wulf 190 does. Adding two 20mm cannon only brings the Maneuver Rating down to 34, but you will find the enemy being destroyed and not damaged by this armament package. Still, I prefer not to use it if I have Fw-190s available.

Another point is if your are going to set a Superiority Mission select your Optimal Altitude of 21,000' where you will be flying at the altitude where you reach your highest speed.

In the 1943 Campaign your Pilots Experience and Morale Ratings are comparable to Allied Pilots. In 1944 contests your pilots will not be as highly trained. At this time of the war, it is important to get your pilots into the best ride they can get as quickly as possible. The improved Bf-109G-14 is available in July 1944. If you can wait, keep you older Bf-109G-6s on the ground until you can swap out for the Bf-109G-14. You will always be at a disadvantage so you must exploit every little advantage you can find. I like to go into the Editor, select the Aircraft Tab and look at the various performance characteristic of all of the aircraft.

Always have your Day Fighter Units set to accept Trained Pilots ONLY. If you do not your Group Experience and Morale will degrade and you will not be able to get it back.

I hope this has been of help to you.

Best Regards,



Q-Ball -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/23/2016 4:09:19 PM)

Good comments here, I have found a couple things are really important to performance:

1. Remove the drop tanks
2. Rest, Rest, Rest. It's better to sit on the ground occasionally and let the Allies bomb unmolested, and use your fighters in spurts.
3. Don't ever use untrained pilots.



Helpless -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/23/2016 4:36:24 PM)

quote:

1. Remove the drop tanks


The only benefit of this would be limitation of the interception range (which could be very beneficial sometimes). Otherwise, fighters should always drop them before combat.




EddyBear81 -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/23/2016 5:33:23 PM)

Hi guys,

Thank you for the answers. So the key for LW seems to be the pilots (as it should be historically), and be very careful not to fight everywhere. Although that does not especially explains the performance difference of Bf-109s compared to FW-190, I am happy to try your suggestions !

Here is the wetransfer link for the save. I have also included a spreadsheet that is based on .txt logfiles, I use it to monitor aircraft performance.
https://we.tl/euicT6HtoV

Merry Christmas to you all



Helpless -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/23/2016 5:52:31 PM)

quote:

Although that does not especially explains the performance difference of Bf-109s compared to FW-190


Friday Night Flights was very good to compare pure AC performance.



decourcy2 -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/26/2016 8:54:18 PM)

In my mod the G-6 is even worse. The Bf109 had an extremely narrow cockpit. If you understand physics you will see that at above 250mph it was almost impossible to turn; not enough leverage could be brought to bear on the stick. The Bf109 and Ju88 were both aerodynamic disasters, I downgraded the Ju88 and upgraded the Do217.

In game results would depend on the fatigue, flight altitude, numbers engaged etc.

I tend to use Bf109's with no extra weapons first to use fuel on the evil Allies fighters, the the Fw190's, about 1/2 with extra cannon, next and then the Me410's with rockets. Do not use the tanks on the 109's because then they will need to return to base quickly which will drop their losses.

Pavel, are you sure about drop tanks and combat? In WitP or Bombing the Reich there was a chance they were not dropped and thus adversely affected combat performance.



Gunnulf -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/26/2016 11:33:03 PM)

For my pennies worth I'm not sure that the bf109 is performing badly due to the airframe, rather I think my pilots are facing having to respond to multiple small raids, each one leading to greater fatigue and worse performance as the week progresses. I don't use drop tanks to try keep the range down and focus the intercepts, and mostly use gun pods to boost firepower at the slight detriment to climb and speed. But by the end of the turn each gruppe in range of the bomber stream has 60-80 fatigue. I can only imagine the last missions they are practically asleep at the controls and performance and operational losses are up. Last turn for example my opponent flew 150 raids of 50 bombers and I think frankly it overloads the pilots. When I see the bf109 fly other missions, or gruppes around Berlin at the end of the bomber stream, they face less raids and the results seem a bit better.



Helpless -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/27/2016 7:54:47 AM)

quote:

Pavel, are you sure about drop tanks and combat? In WitP or Bombing the Reich there was a chance they were not dropped and thus adversely affected combat performance.


DT are affecting performance, but in most cases planes should have enough fuel to drop them or they drop and return to the base.



Helpless -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/27/2016 7:58:49 AM)

quote:

For my pennies worth I'm not sure that the bf109 is performing badly due to the airframe, rather I think my pilots are facing having to respond to multiple small raids, each one leading to greater fatigue and worse performance as the week progresses. I don't use drop tanks to try keep the range down and focus the intercepts, and mostly use gun pods to boost firepower at the slight detriment to climb and speed. But by the end of the turn each gruppe in range of the bomber stream has 60-80 fatigue. I can only imagine the last missions they are practically asleep at the controls and performance and operational losses are up. Last turn for example my opponent flew 150 raids of 50 bombers and I think frankly it overloads the pilots. When I see the bf109 fly other missions, or gruppes around Berlin at the end of the bomber stream, they face less raids and the results seem a bit better.


I think your rant on "small raids" is greatly overestimated.



Gunnulf -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/27/2016 7:31:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

For my pennies worth I'm not sure that the bf109 is performing badly due to the airframe, rather I think my pilots are facing having to respond to multiple small raids, each one leading to greater fatigue and worse performance as the week progresses. I don't use drop tanks to try keep the range down and focus the intercepts, and mostly use gun pods to boost firepower at the slight detriment to climb and speed. But by the end of the turn each gruppe in range of the bomber stream has 60-80 fatigue. I can only imagine the last missions they are practically asleep at the controls and performance and operational losses are up. Last turn for example my opponent flew 150 raids of 50 bombers and I think frankly it overloads the pilots. When I see the bf109 fly other missions, or gruppes around Berlin at the end of the bomber stream, they face less raids and the results seem a bit better.


I think your rant on "small raids" is greatly overestimated.


Very very possibly and I'm sorry it comes across as rant-esque. Believe it or not I'm calmly and contently tapping away at the keyboard and not crashing at the pad like a deranged and angry lunatic :) I'm just trying to piece together why I've lost twice as many pilots in a similar time as 2 other games, it seems like the biggest piece of the jigsaw from my observations but of course there is no doubt plenty more I am not considering or have overlooked. Consider it a telegram from the bunker of a shell shocked subordinate at the front line to be disregarded at your will, you of course have a much better overview and understanding of the big picture.



Helpless -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/27/2016 7:42:26 PM)

Pilots worth much more than air frames in this game.

No need to sorry, Chris. It may be not so easy for you, but it is a fun to read you "telegrams from a bunker" :)



Gunnulf -> RE: Low performing Bf-109s (12/27/2016 8:28:00 PM)

I am trying to get in character I guess ;)

Without the dressing up of course, that would be a bit weird



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