The things they carried? (Full Version)

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Yaab -> The things they carried? (12/29/2016 5:01:40 AM)

This is from an ongoing AAR so the following jpg has been censored.

[image]https://s30.postimg.org/3l0qoe5ox/unit_carry.jpg[/image]

[image]https://i.postimg.cc/WzbXGFCP/unit-carry.jpg[/image]

A Jap unit landed in a non-base hex along with supplies unloaded from some ships. It makes its way through an undeveloped hex (no infrastructure) towards an enemy base. They unit travels on foot. Now, is there an upper limit of how much supply a unit can carry on its back? I have a hard time believing that these guys can carry ten times more than what is required and now shoulder a staggering 6000 supplies load with no sweat. I know the supply usage can shoot up as much as tenfold during combat, but I have been under the impression that this supply is pushed to a unit by the automatic supply system. Here, we have got a unit slogging through jungle and carrying a huge load on their back. It seems feasible provided somehow additional supply squads had been added, which is not the case.

So, what is the carry limit then for those Japanese supermen? 20,000 supply? 30,000 supply? What is the carry limit in-game for LCUs in such situations? Does a unit carry ALL SUPPLY unloaded in a non-base hex since there is no base in the hex to depot the supplies?

EDIT: Reuploaded the original picture.



BBfanboy -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 6:33:02 AM)

Yes - the supply unloaded from the ships has nowhere else to go, so it goes with the troops. You can imagine native porters and donkey trains but I don't think the developers really had a rationale other than not wanting to leave a pile of supplies on the beach.



Yaab -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 6:59:25 AM)

Yes, I was thinking maybe natives got abstracted and are actually traveling with the unit.

This brings me to another question: can you destroy this moving supply pile with air attacks? When there is a base in a hex , you can score supply hits with bombers. If there is no base in the hex, is the unit's supply immune from bombing? If the supply pile is immune, then your only chance of stopping the enemy LCU, is to disable its devices with air attacks. Actually, it would make sense late-war for the Japs to sit in the non-base hexes to protect unit supply and vacate the bases like Manus.



obvert -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 9:36:16 AM)

So. I get you're trying to show limitations of the current game setup.

Why are you doing that?

This game will not have the kind of changes you're asking for in this or another thread about supply. Why worry about it?



Yaab -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 9:45:10 AM)

I do not ask for rewriting the code, I am just curious if there is a un upper limit for this supply piggybacking. If you unload only a single unit and 50,000 supplies in the hex adjacent to Manus and give it the orders to march on Manus, will this one unit take the whole supply pile with them?



HansBolter -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 10:55:33 AM)

I see 241 support squads.

These are the guys toting the supply from one temporary field dump to the next.

They could be hefting every box on their shoulders, or they could be using hand carts.

Yes, all of the supply you stockpile in the beachhead will move forward with the troops, at least what is left after consumption.

I've dumped as much as 20k supply into a stack of troops on a beach head that haven't yet taken the base target.

More often than not, this is on one hex islands so this huge supply dump doesn't have to be relocated.

I agree with Obvert that the in depth analysis of game abstractions is a fruitless mental exercise.



Yaab -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 11:59:47 AM)

After five years, it is only the small things that are left for scrutiny.

I have no problem with one hex islands. What bugs me are two-hex or more islands which have non-base hexes in them. If there is no limit of how much a unit can carry,than a single division can carry 500,000 supplies and the defender cannot destroy it from air because the division has no depot because the depot exists on the shoulders of its soldiers. You can only pound the division from air to try disable its squads. This seems tricky if the unit has organic AA or AA units traveling with them. Seems Yamashita was right about the late-war defence in northern Luzon. Park your forces in the non-base hexes with tons of supplies and AA there and you become a real PITA for the Allies.

Another thing, if supplies stick to the unit then you should be able to wage a guerrilla war indefinitely in places where enemy controls all the bases and your initial supply pile is big enough.

Also if you invade the Australia as the Japs, just dump several units and 300,000 supplies and tons of AA units and they should be able to travel across Oz with impunity as long as they do not conquer any base. Once they get hold of at least one base, the supplies should start trickling from the unit to the base. If a unit moves from hex to hex does it suffer supply attritions equal to supply movement trace cost through hex or only loses the supplies eaten by the unit?

The supply pile seems indestructible - you cannot bomb it from air, probably id doesn't suffer trace cost as it moves with the unit and suffers no spoilage since there are no port/airfield stockpile levels in non-base hexes.



obvert -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 12:53:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

After five years, it is only the small things that are left for scrutiny.

I have no problem with one hex islands. What bugs me are two-hex or more islands which have non-base hexes in them. If there is no limit of how much a unit can carry,than a single division can carry 500,000 supplies and the defender cannot destroy it from air because the division has no depot because the depot exists on the shoulders of its soldiers. You can only pound the division from air to try disable its squads. This seems tricky if the unit has organic AA or AA units traveling with them. Seems Yamashita was right about the late-war defence in northern Luzon. Park your forces in the non-base hexes with tons of supplies and AA there and you become a real PITA for the Allies.

Another thing, if supplies stick to the unit then you should be able to wage a guerrilla war indefinitely in places where enemy controls all the bases and your initial supply pile is big enough.

Also if you invade the Australia as the Japs, just dump several units and 300,000 supplies and tons of AA units and they should be able to travel across Oz with impunity as long as they do not conquer any base. Once they get hold of at least one base, the supplies should start trickling from the unit to the base. If a unit moves from hex to hex does it suffer supply attritions equal to supply movement trace cost through hex or only loses the supplies eaten by the unit?

The supply pile seems indestructible - you cannot bomb it from air, probably id doesn't suffer trace cost as it moves with the unit and suffers no spoilage since there are no port/airfield stockpile levels in non-base hexes.


If you have 300-500k supplies to dump on a few division in the PI for late war defence, go for it! The Allies will be pretty happy those supplies aren't in your major airfields![:D]



MakeeLearn -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 1:19:15 PM)



From experience, supplies could be moved up in increments by relays, and a chain of caches formed. Combat troops will not have all supplies within a arms reach, but things could be accessed when needed



HansBolter -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 1:28:08 PM)

Abstractions will always have the potential to create some weird situations.

The bombing of supply in game is way overpowered as it is.

For years I descried the ability to bomb an unused airfield to destroy the supply of ground troops in the hex.
It is what it is and isn't going to be changed to suit me.

Lamenting the inability to bomb LCU supply dumps out of a false sense of an entitlement to be able to destroy supplies from the air is unwarranted in my opinion.

Interdicting supply movement from the air is a mighty challenge.
Especially in heavy terrain.
Just look at the American experience in Viet Nam for a prime example.



GetAssista -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 7:36:31 PM)

Landing in a non-base hex for offensive operations in cheeky enough tactics in itself given amphibious mechanics. So a base-only-amphib-landings house rule is often enough to render piggy-backing useless.
From my observations, LCUs can carry a lot of supply if it is stuffed on them from the ships



BBfanboy -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 7:56:09 PM)

Bombing Japanese troops does have supply implications. When devices are destroyed, new ones come out of supply. For the Allies squads must be available in the pool but the Japanese can make them in situ if they have supply + Manpower points accumulated.



adarbrauner -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 8:33:22 PM)

The primary point here is not supply destruction by air bombardement or other bombardment, but ratehr the ability for an LCU to carry an unlimited amount of supply.

I wonder it won't take too much to correct this.

Second point is supply interdicton in general by air, and this yes may be a big job (to introduce in the game).

I think that Yaab should only be thanked for bringing up interesting points.



geofflambert -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 8:44:41 PM)

An independant brigade has support troops which do nothing but move stuff around. It might be interesting to have something like the stacking limits in DaBabes apply to both troops and supplies at the same time. Also allowing "empty hexes to hold supply and maybe twiddle with spoilage some. If the supply could be drawn from an otherwise empty hex, it could be captured.



Nomad -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 9:44:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

The primary point here is not supply destruction by air bombardement or other bombardment, but ratehr the ability for an LCU to carry an unlimited amount of supply.

I wonder it won't take too much to correct this.

Second point is supply interdicton in general by air, and this yes may be a big job (to introduce in the game).

I think that Yaab should only be thanked for bringing up interesting points.


This will never happen.



obvert -> RE: The things they carried? (12/29/2016 9:47:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad


quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

The primary point here is not supply destruction by air bombardement or other bombardment, but ratehr the ability for an LCU to carry an unlimited amount of supply.

I wonder it won't take too much to correct this.

Second point is supply interdicton in general by air, and this yes may be a big job (to introduce in the game).

I think that Yaab should only be thanked for bringing up interesting points.


This will never happen.


+1

Who do you think is going to "correct" these things?



HansBolter -> RE: The things they carried? (12/30/2016 10:54:51 AM)

He is still new to the game and hasn't yet accepted what all of us vets know.

Seeing things that don't make sense always leads one to wish or hope they will be 'corrected'.

Knowing this game is 8 years old and built upon an engine that is far, far older we vets who have been playing since the outset know that the support the game has is amazing, but major changes to accommodate players desires is not ever going to be on the horizon.



Olorin -> RE: The things they carried? (12/30/2016 1:39:58 PM)

This wargame is as detailed as any wargame will ever be. Anything more and the game would become an unmarketable simulator, fit for use only by army and navy officers. I'd love to play that sim though.



Yaab -> RE: The things they carried? (8/12/2017 8:39:41 AM)

One more question. If a unit is in a non-base hex behind enemy lines and you fly transport mission and drop supplies to te unit, will the dropped supplies then "stick" to the unit? If so, if you fly hundreds of transport missions and there is no limit as to how much a unit can carry, you could end up with a super-unit carrying i.e. 10,000 supplies. Could be interesting to see such unit in Burma or New Guinea.



GetAssista -> RE: The things they carried? (8/12/2017 11:10:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
One more question. If a unit is in a non-base hex behind enemy lines and you fly transport mission and drop supplies to te unit, will the dropped supplies then "stick" to the unit? If so, if you fly hundreds of transport missions and there is no limit as to how much a unit can carry, you could end up with a super-unit carrying i.e. 10,000 supplies. Could be interesting to see such unit in Burma or New Guinea.

It is possible. I used juiced-up LCUs in Burma to transport supply into inland bases during monsoon season, when inherent road-base network has miniscule supply draw. Was slow but helpful. And of course gamey, because draw restrictions are there for a reason.
The problem with using this as LCU is that you would then have to keep this LCU out of the bases, because LCUs dump excess supply into the base they are in. Also, beeffing up internal supply from ships is far more efficient than with air transport. The latter always have other uses during the campaign.



Yaab -> RE: The things they carried? (8/12/2017 11:41:32 AM)

So keeping this surplus supply would require the unit to stay away from friendly bases or taking enemy bases, because then the excess supply would move to a base. Basically, an eternal non-base hex commando unit.



Alpha77 -> RE: The things they carried? (8/14/2017 6:35:18 PM)

Scroll down for trailers and hand carts (only part of the answer you want, but still trying [;)]):

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/handbook-japanese-military/automotive-equipment.html


(some things need to be abstracted in the game)

Edit, I totally like this one (who sells them cheaply?):

[image]http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/handbook-japanese-military/pics/399-model-94-tracked-trailer.jpg[/image]



rustysi -> RE: The things they carried? (8/14/2017 6:42:11 PM)

quote:

Basically, an eternal non-base hex commando unit.


Eventually the unit may have 'morale' problems. Hey, the boys need a little R&R from time-to-time.[sm=party-smiley-012.gif][sm=00000436.gif][sm=kiss.gif][sm=happy0005.gif][:D]



Yaab -> RE: The things they carried? (1/18/2022 7:42:06 PM)

Bump.

Added the missing picture in post 1.



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