Infantry Problems? (Full Version)

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Gerry4321 -> Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 5:33:34 AM)

Playing Retaking Vierville.

1. One of the German 447s was in hex X after the Movement Segment but did not advance in from the open ground to the adjacent building (which is a victory location) in the Advance Segment. Maybe something wrong with the map/scenario?

2. Broken unit routed from 2,19 to the building 4,19. And it took control of two victory locations (one on its journey and the one it ended up in). Should a broken unit be able to take control of a building?

Attaching two saved files in next post. Thanks.



[image]local://upfiles/8839/CE242CA4910C45D984859964E36863E3.jpg[/image]



Gerry4321 -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 5:37:41 AM)

First file - plesae change .jpg to .sav



Gerry4321 -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 5:38:37 AM)

Second file - please change extension to .sav. Thanks.



rico21 -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 9:29:17 AM)

It will get better after the Smoke Update! [:D]

[image]local://upfiles/53841/47044A6DFF6144038B6C60B482CD38C8.jpg[/image]



fuselex -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 2:42:49 PM)

nobody can deny your sense of humour Rico :)



Hailstone -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 4:53:45 PM)

Smoke'm if you got'm.[sm=00000003.gif]



fuselex -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 5:10:45 PM)

:)

[image]local://upfiles/49575/7D38D457552D449AAEDA4C2017A33C2F.jpg[/image]



Gerry4321 -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 5:44:30 PM)

I agree it is funny. But not helpful. I am interested in supporting the game but when the AI won't advance into an empty victory location I find it hard. And by doing so they stay in open ground.



fuselex -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 5:58:59 PM)

someone correct me please if I`m wrong , but in the advance phase you cant move into a fortified building ?



fuselex -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 6:00:42 PM)

I`m presuming it is fortified



Gerry4321 -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 6:06:26 PM)

It is the Retaking Vierville scenario - I can check when I am home but if there is no enemy in there shouldn't it be able to advance in?



fuselex -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 6:13:08 PM)

if it`s not fortified , or your unit is not tired from double movement , I think you should be able to .
hopefully others will be able to answer with certainty



Hailstone -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 6:40:28 PM)

Fortified buildings have a TEM of +1 on top of the usual TEM. Stone buildings have +4 TEM while the wooden variety gets a +3 TEM. Also, infantry cannot advance into a fortified building hex in any phase if there's an unpinned, good order unit in that hex. So no close assaulting a fortified hex unless the defending unit is broken. Now, as far as moving into an empty fortified hex in the advance phase I noticed I wasn't able to when playing that scenario which I thought was allowable under ASL rules. That's all I got.



Gerry4321 -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/20/2017 9:06:49 PM)

Thanks.

Looking at it logically they should be able to move in there in their advance phase. It is a type of movement. Building is empty. Crazy to have them outside in the street waiting for the next movement phase.

Likewise exiting units should be able to leave the map in the advance phase imo.



marcdhanna -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/21/2017 8:49:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gerry

I agree it is funny. But not helpful. I am interested in supporting the game but when the AI won't advance into an empty victory location I find it hard. And by doing so they stay in open ground.



+1. Once again we have to look to ASL for explanations. Yes, in ASL fortified buildings manned by a Good Order non-pinned squad cannot be entered. At the same time, empty fortified buildings should be able to be entered.

Because the game stands on the basis of an AI model (or the rare hot-seat occasions -- are there any? although I'd have to say playing hot-seat with one of Rico's 'Matrix belles' could be fun but would lead to a divorce situation), we don't see the amazing-ness of this game because it doesn't have some kind of PBEM mechanic. The AI makes these kind of mistakes and I don't know what the algorithm would be to cause that.

This is the kind of thing that must be addressed as a priority along with the very important update 'TOOLTIP' combat predictions. See, if I buy Kursk and see tanks sitting around and infantry sitting around because of lazy AI, I'd be disappointed. Because there is nobody to hot-seat with, and nobody to PBEM with.

I know these statements may seem to put a lot of pressure on Matrix and developers but they need to be made and when necessary emphasized. It's because this game has the outstanding potential that it does, that I stick around for it.



Corto2London -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/21/2017 9:29:33 AM)

Agree at 100% !
Your Prajñāpāramitā signature suits you perfectly ! [;)]



UP844 -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/21/2017 12:49:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gerry
I agree it is funny. But not helpful. I am interested in supporting the game but when the AI won't advance into an empty victory location I find it hard. And by doing so they stay in open ground.



quote:

ORIGINAL: marcdhanna
This is the kind of thing that must be addressed as a priority along with the very important update 'TOOLTIP' combat predictions. See, if I buy Kursk and see tanks sitting around and infantry sitting around because of lazy AI, I'd be disappointed. Because there is nobody to hot-seat with, and nobody to PBEM with.

I know these statements may seem to put a lot of pressure on Matrix and developers but they need to be made and when necessary emphasized. It's because this game has the outstanding potential that it does, that I stick around for it.


[sm=happy0065.gif]

I wholeheartedly agree with both you. In my opinion, THE upgrade ToTH currently needs is an improvement of the AI behaviour. This is such a basic requirement I think it is more important than having smoke, hit percentages, different nationalities or any other feature (and yes, I would also like having all these features). I understand it is not an easy task, and I acknowledge the IA has somewhat improved (as regards to AFVs), but this is not enough.

Too many times I have seen the AI making absurd target selection choices (see the attached picture, which has been taken this morning: the German squad and the 75mm IG fired at the two less threatening targets [8|]), or missing easy opportunities like the one Gerry reported in the opening post. Preventing the AI from firing at long range will undoubtedly cut LOS verification time, but will also turn any scenario not taking place in close terrain into a one-sided massacre.

I do not pretend having a Patton-like artificial opponent, but I still don't see any trace of a ferocious and adaptive AI which will dynamically respond to a player’s maneuvers..

I will certainly purchase the Kursk DLC to support the system, but I also think issues need to be reported (and, if possible, addressed).


[image]local://upfiles/53779/6AA016899BF24C35A0760FC17CF11B8B.jpg[/image]



rico21 -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/21/2017 1:53:26 PM)

If the gun shoots, this is happen !!![:D]

[image]local://upfiles/53841/39C710E26A3F4970A5FF3FD17AA48C29.jpg[/image]



Gerry4321 -> RE: Infantry Problems? (1/21/2017 4:42:15 PM)

"This is the kind of thing that must be addressed as a priority along with the very important update 'TOOLTIP' combat predictions. See, if I buy Kursk and see tanks sitting around and infantry sitting around because of lazy AI, I'd be disappointed. Because there is nobody to hot-seat with, and nobody to PBEM with.

I know these statements may seem to put a lot of pressure on Matrix and developers but they need to be made and when necessary emphasized. It's because this game has the outstanding potential that it does, that I stick around for it."

"I wholeheartedly agree with both you. In my opinion, THE upgrade ToTH currently needs is an improvement of the AI behaviour. This is such a basic requirement I think it is more important than having smoke, hit percentages, different nationalities or any other feature (and yes, I would also like having all these features)."

Agree very much with this. I may get Kursk to support Peter and Jorgen but very soon these AI problems have to be solved. I didn't continue with the Vierville scenario as there was no point. When the AI won't grab an empty victory location it cannot win I think.

I hope that Peter can finds the time for this but I know also that he has a full-time job.

In terms of AI-type behavior, another Peter on boardgamegeek has written basic rules for an ASL bot (mostly SK scenarios or simpler ASL scenarios) which allows you to play scenarios solo but you have a side. And the Bot plays as an AI. It has generated quite a bit of interest. Maybe some of the Bot's thoughts for infantry movement could be looked at with a view to improving the AI in ToTH?

I hope I have not overstepped the mark here. Do not mean to offend Peter and Jorgen. This is a game I really want to support.



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