RE: Shannon versus Z (Full Version)

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Grotius -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/11/2017 5:33:12 AM)

Ah OK, that explains it. Thanks!



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/16/2017 10:08:03 PM)

As a point of reference we have spent a total of 10 hours 50 minutes and are now on 1st Turn Production. Note that there was a lot of time spent fumbling around while I used some software development tools to fix bugs we encountered. Those bugs are all fixed now - I will upload version 02.03.06.00 as a Hot Patch tomorrow (Friday).

I would estimate that for most players, finishing the first turn will take between 6 to 10 hours, mostly depending on how many impulses there are. Of course that includes setting up all the major powers prior to actually starting the turn.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/17/2017 10:15:17 PM)

The first turn ended after the 6th impulse, so the Initiative stays at +2 for the Axis (the Axis went first and the Allies ended the turn).

Here are the losses for the turn and the situation in northern China heading into the Production phase. China might get some reinforcements. Note that the weather become friendlier to land operations, which will influence what it might be at the start of the second turn (Nov/Dec). Southern China doesn't have much happening.



[image]local://upfiles/16701/918DB073DA584F21A0479E2292D6ED1E.jpg[/image]

EDIT: 3 tries - no joy.



Courtenay -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/18/2017 6:38:52 AM)

I tried to download the attachments in the previous three posts, and Firefox would not do so; instead I got a strange browser window that I have never seen before.

I have no idea where the error is coming from, (Slitherine? Firefox? the attached file?), but wanted to mention the problem.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/18/2017 4:35:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

I tried to download the attachments in the previous three posts, and Firefox would not do so; instead I got a strange browser window that I have never seen before.

I have no idea where the error is coming from, (Slitherine? Firefox? the attached file?), but wanted to mention the problem.

There is some sort of problem with the Slitherine/Matrix server. All attachments are coming up empty.



AllenK -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/18/2017 4:40:03 PM)

If you delete them, then reload them, it seems to work okay.

Alternatively, post without the attachment and then edit the post to add it.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/18/2017 4:44:26 PM)

The first turn ended after the 6th impulse, so the Initiative stays at +2 for the Axis (the Axis went first and the Allies ended the turn).

Here are the losses for the turn and the situation in northern China heading into the Production phase. China might get some reinforcements. Note that the weather become friendlier to land operations, which will influence what it might be at the start of the second turn (Nov/Dec). Southern China doesn't have much happening.




[image]local://upfiles/16701/82112384AFBD48009080D20FD46E4965.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/18/2017 4:47:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK

If you delete them, then reload them, it seems to work okay.

Alternatively, post without the attachment and then edit the post to add it.

Yes, that works - although I do not know why.[:@]

Thank you for the work around.[&o][&o][&o]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/18/2017 6:19:22 PM)

Here are the build points for Sep Oct 1939.

Most of these are pretty standard. Germany lost 2 production points to strategic bombing in the second impulse when both the Commonwealth and France were successful in their bombing raids while they had surprise (+! on the die roll).

I also messed up hex control that cost Germany 3 production points. Failing to convert the resource hexes in Poland and the rail line in the Netherlands meant that 3 non-oil resources were simply wasted [see the screenshot in the next post]. Not playing for 22 years is showing up as sloppiness. I vaguely thought that conquest would take care of hex control, but conquest comes after production - sigh. It would have been trivial to have had German units move through those hexes. In playing over the board, Germany would probably 'claim' those resources, since human opponents are unlikely to notice that the hexes are still controlled by the Commonwealth. But that #&%# computer keeps track of all those details.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/66BFEDD66E4846ADAC8F74464351E263.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/18/2017 6:24:00 PM)

Another instance of rust after 22 years was failing to prevent partisans in China. You can see the results of that in an earlier post where Japan lost a transport. There were 3 naval units alone in Shanghai. I only had 16 garrison points in China when I needed at least 20. Given a 30% chance of them arriving, they arrived and rolled well enough to destroy one of the 2 transports.[:@]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/18/2017 6:37:28 PM)

Here is Europe at the end of Sep/Oct 1939. Note that the weather is better, but what it will be at the start of the next turn depends on the die roll. So does the answer to the question of who will move first.

As you can see, I messed up in Denmark and was lucky to take Copenhagen on the fifth impulse[X(]. While testing MWIF I have been using unlimited divisions, but that optional rule wasn't part of this game and the infantry corps I placed near Denmark couldn't be broken down. Stupid on my part, compounded by not getting the 2 infantry corps (5-3 and 5-4) positioned correctly so the 4-mover could enter Copenhagen. I was worrying about a ground strike on a hex containing 2 units. More fumbling around by me lost the 5-3 to the British landing and attack. However, I was quite happy that the Allies didn't land a British corps in Copenhagen. I wouldn't have been able to have driven it out very easily. But the Commonwealth would have had a transport stuck in Copenhagen with the risk of running past German naval units in the Baltic Sea in order to return to England.

I used the HQ I had left behind in western Germany to reorganize 3 units that had arrived disorganized, as reserves. Adding a 6-4 infantry corps coming back from Poland gave me enough strength to take out Amsterdam. But the turn didn;t end, so the Allies were able to put a British corps in Rotterdam. If they move first they will be able to add another corps there - if they so choose.

By the way, the strange two German units in southern Poland had were guarding a Polish unit in Krakow. But the unit launched an unsuccessful suicidal 1:1 attack in the 6th impulse of the last turn.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/19295143AC134EB4A154CEA21EA43ABE.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/18/2017 6:54:28 PM)

Here is the information on reinforcements and units in the Reserve Pool for Nov/Dec 1939. Of course this is before Production. This is the information both sides need for deciding which units to build.


[image]local://upfiles/16701/37033E36B8334670BC39405369CCC256.jpg[/image]



cfinch -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/18/2017 7:43:51 PM)

isn't it reasonably good for Germany to have those UK units all allocated to places that can't help the french and even open to killing a few. if timing is right it could make gilbralter, if spain is hit, easier?



brian brian -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/18/2017 11:04:32 PM)

What is in Frederikshavn aside from the TRS?



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/19/2017 3:06:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

What is in Frederikshavn aside from the TRS?

Two other naval units. They were forced to rebase when Denmark was conquered.



Centuur -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/19/2017 9:53:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cfinch

isn't it reasonably good for Germany to have those UK units all allocated to places that can't help the french and even open to killing a few. if timing is right it could make gilbralter, if spain is hit, easier?


No, it isn't. The CW can send ships into the Baltic see, destroying the German convoys transporting the Swedish ore, thus robbing Germany of production points. Also, they can send planes into Denmark to bomb the factories in Germany far more effectively. Finally, they can try to expand the bridgehead, using their BB's for shore bombardment. The Luftwaffe can't prevent these thing from happening and at the same time be effective in France...



AllenK -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/19/2017 11:53:12 AM)

Also, as soon as AMPH's and/or MAR's are available, the German Baltic Coast and Finland are ripe for invasion, meaning units needed elsewhere are tied up on garrison duties.



brian brian -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/19/2017 1:48:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

What is in Frederikshavn aside from the TRS?

Two other naval units. They were forced to rebase when Denmark was conquered.


That is why I was wondering. The Conquest rule is going to be improved in the future I believe.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/28/2017 1:22:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: cfinch

isn't it reasonably good for Germany to have those UK units all allocated to places that can't help the french and even open to killing a few. if timing is right it could make gilbralter, if spain is hit, easier?


No, it isn't. The CW can send ships into the Baltic see, destroying the German convoys transporting the Swedish ore, thus robbing Germany of production points. Also, they can send planes into Denmark to bomb the factories in Germany far more effectively. Finally, they can try to expand the bridgehead, using their BB's for shore bombardment. The Luftwaffe can't prevent these thing from happening and at the same time be effective in France...

Not quite. With Germany holding Copenhagen and Kiel, the only way to get Commonwealth naval unis into the Baltic is to have them stop in Frederikshavn first. And that is a minor port, so only a limited number of ships can enter. Even if they send subs, those can be can be port attacked.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/28/2017 1:37:52 AM)

Here is an update on Europe. This screenshot is at the land combat resolution phase of the 1st impulse of the 2nd turn.

I needed a whole lot of good things to happen and got 2 out of 3. I also needed a 4th good die roll.
1 - Won the initiative (with Axis +2 that had a pretty good chance.[:)] I didn't have to reroll.[:)] Axis moved first.
2 - Weather came out Fine in the North Temperate.[:)]
3 - 2 bombers got through to bomb Rotterdam. The Commonwealth fighter flew too but the results were: nothing happened. The planes returned to base, the 7-4 motorized wasn't disorganized.[:(]
4 - ]Not attempted] Engage the UK Battle and 1 convoy point in the North Sea and sink the convoy point.

If all 4 things had gone my way, Rotterdam would have had 1 defensive combat factor.

Given that the Allies were going to put another 7 Inf in Rotterdam, I made the attack anyway (HQ support). The 2/1 result was great for Germany. The Allies lost the 7-4 and the fighter. The Axis lost the Militia and the 1-3 Div, but took Rotterdam and drove the Netherlands convoys into the North Sea. Bugs in the code messed up the interception naval combat. We arbitrarily decided that 1 convoy was lost by the Commonwealth. 4 got through to England. I have since fixed that bug.

Note that the Engineer in Lodz did repair the red factory (for free).[sm=character0272.gif] That code was a bear to get correct for the SOlitaire version, so it was heart warming to see it work first time out in NetPlay. There are a couple of German units OOS in Poland which was due to another bug. The conquest of the 3 minor countries only occurred on the Allied computer. So the Axis computer version (shown here) doesn't know that Warsaw is a secondary supply source. I have since fixed that bug.

France is ready for the Germans to DOW Belgium.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/386B8FFB71724D7FACE2EF94FFCDE287.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/28/2017 2:05:03 AM)

Z's and my combined blunders in Denmark continue unabated.

After I messed up the conquest of Denmark, Z killed off my 5-3 Inf. He probably should have occupied Copenhagen instead.

Then I took Copenhagen and conquered Denmark at the end of the turn. Z had left only naval units in Frederikshavn and those were force to rebase when the hex became German controlled due to conquest.

I could have occupied Frederikshavn by using a naval transport in the first impulse, but I was busy in The Netherlands.

Z left it empty during his impulse.

I moved an Inf out to the Baltic intending to land in Fred. but used all my land moves, so the Inf stayed aboard ship.

Z ran his 6-5 motorized into Fred. during bad weather (which is why the unit became disorganized). He also landed Gort and an Inf in Calais, leaving an AA unit and 5-3 Inf at sea in the North Sea.

The weather turned good , so I ran a couple of armor up attack the 6-6 Mech alone on the German/Denmark border. With help from Offensive Shore Bombardment from the German Navy and the 5-4 Inf out of Copenhagen attacking across the straits, the attack succeeded. The Commonwealth didn't have any air support available because it had all been used in the failed defense of Rotterdam in the first impulse of the turn. We are not using the optional rule Defensive Shore Bombardment, so Z's fleet couldn't help. The attack was half disorganized for the attacker and retreat. This leaves the 6-6 Mech disorganized and soon to be OOS once the Axis moves.

Note that the land units in the North Sea are unable to help because they are aboard transports. Z landed the Inf in Fred. and the AA in Calais. The Axis had an automatic attack on the 6-6 Mech next impulse.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/D2A35B673D8C4CF78F3A580C1EF7FCC1.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/28/2017 6:09:43 PM)

Here is the situation in China for the Land Combat Declaration in the 1st impulse of the 2nd turn.

The attack on the Nationalist Inf was good odds and the Japanese lost no units with none disorganized.

The attack on Sian was 'adventurous' but I was willing to lose the 5-3 Militia and the Div is necessary. Taking out Sian means that the Sian Militia unit will not be returning. As it turned out I lost 1 unit with 1 disorganized, taking Sian (the Chinese Inf dies.

Not all of this was crazy risky: I had two HQ's available to reorganize units if necessary.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/DF2D6D6F07FD406786C0DDD04089EE65.jpg[/image]



Courtenay -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/28/2017 6:34:07 PM)

Good attack. The reward was certainly worth the risk. The Communists are going to have to do a long march to Tianshui, and it is not at all clear that the Japanese won't get there first. Alternatively, they could try and hole up around Yenan, but that looks like a very bad idea to me. If I were the Chinese, I would build the Communist CAV XX, and send it south to take a Nationalist city. I would be worried that the Japanese would take all the Communist cities. I don't know if they will, but I don't know that they won't, either.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/28/2017 6:48:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

Good attack. The reward was certainly worth the risk. The Communists are going to have to do a long march to Tianshui, and it is not at all clear that the Japanese won't get there first. Alternatively, they could try and hole up around Yenan, but that looks like a very bad idea to me. If I were the Chinese, I would build the Communist CAV XX, and send it south to take a Nationalist city. I would be worried that the Japanese would take all the Communist cities. I don't know if they will, but I don't know that they won't, either.

Z's decision was to have the USSR DOW Japan. The 2 Inf corps I had in Manchuria didn't deter him!

Now the Japanese have to deal with the Chinese, the Russians, possible partisans, and think about plans for the USA. Interesting times.[:D]



WIF_Killzone -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/28/2017 10:21:01 PM)

Would have paid money to see the results of the allies winning the initiative. Good battles nonetheless.



WIF_Killzone -> RE: Shannon versus Z (2/28/2017 10:47:20 PM)

Ok I'm really stubborn, and I really want to see the allies win the initiative, and play from there. Here's why:

Steve coded the engine, has a vary detailed knowledge of the game so it would be a good test of his skills with a handicap to start.
Haven't seen this allied strategy so interested in outcome and impacts to later impulses.
Restarting a saved games is easy.
I've had a couple of glasses of wine.
I've been a loyal supporter for years during development and even picked on Bo from time to time.
I've had a couple of glasses of wine.

So what do you say??? please!!!!














brian brian -> RE: Shannon versus Z (3/1/2017 3:54:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

The Communists are going to have to do a long march to Tianshui


Communists making a Long March, you say? I think they have had a little practice at that.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (3/1/2017 4:07:40 AM)


EDIT: {This post was in the wrong thread.[:@] This is all about my game with C.]

The Japanese got back in supply and killed the 5-3 Inf, losing a 5-3 Inf of their own. The the turn ended and the Communists got 1 partisan - taking out a disorganized Japanese bomber. The Axis won the initiative (as expected) got Fine weather in the North Temperate (not expected, 20% chance), and killed off the 2-4 Nationalist Cav.

So, all in all, the Chinese lost a 5-3 and a 2-4. The Japanese lost two bombers and a 5-3.

The game is still in progress at that point, so I am not showing screenshots until it moves on a while more.

EDIT: Any time your opponent ends the turn, starts the next turn, and gets Fine weather is always a rough patch.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (3/7/2017 7:00:19 PM)

Turn 2, Impulse 9.

The last couple of impulses were very interesting. The Commonwealth left a naval transport with an Armor HQ at sea in the Eastern Med. Obviously I couldn't let that go unpunished, so Italy declared war on the Commonwealth (but not France). Then The Italian fleet sallied forth to the Eastern Med. This was a Combined Action and the land units advanced into Egypt.

In the following Naval Combat phase, the search rolls in the Eastern Med failed and the British fled with their Armor HQ to Marseilles. As you can see here, that left only one Territorial blocking the Italians from conquering Egypt.

But the British subs in the Italian Coast kept finding the Italian convoys so the Italians in North Africa are OOS. I had stupidly set up all the Italian convoys in minor ports bordering the Italian Coast, so I was unable to get a convoy to the Western Med. I could have risked the Italian naval transport (in La Spezia) , but that was too high a risk (even for me). Each impulse I would send a convoy to the Italian Coast and the British subs would find and destroy it. By my third attempt, the British subs were both disorganized and unable to search, but then the weather was bad so the attack on Alexandria was too dangerous. Losing both the Italian units was way too risky. If I had been a little luckier here, I would have had 7 land factors, 5 air factors (the bomber from Sicily rebased to Northern Africa), and 7 shore bombardment points. That would have been 19:3, plus 2 shifts for the HQ and 1 for the Territorial. +15 on the 2D10 would have been "oh so nice". Even after losing the Inf, Balbo would have been in a race to reach Cairo before the Commonwealth could bring in reinforcements.



[image]local://upfiles/16701/DBC950950A0941F7AFA9004A88499F21.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Shannon versus Z (3/7/2017 7:11:19 PM)

While the search rolls in the Eastern Med and Italian Coast were good for the Allies, that was compensated (somewhat) by good rolls for the Axis in the Western Med and Cape St. Vincent. The one British convoy in the Western Med was destroyed (or maybe just aborted?). And in Cape St. Vincent the Italian sub was good to go in 4 straight search attempts.

The first time it was the British who succeeded in their search roll, but that was disastrous for them because DOW surprise gave all the surprise points to the Italians. They simply eliminated the risk to their sub and hammered the escorts in the 4 section box.

In subsequent combats, the Italians worked over both the escorts and the convoys. At the start, the Commonwealth had 4 escorts in the 4, 1, and 0 section boxes and 10 convoys. As shown here, they are down to 3 escorts and 2 convoys. Now not all of those were destroyed. Being aborted was not gift though. The British were counting on the convoys to get resources to the English factories.

As it turned out, the Commonwealth was sending a ton of resources to France so France had 12 production points and the Commonwealth only 5. That was after the Brits scraped together some loose convoys to raise the convoy count in Cape St. Vincent up to 5.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/386D9893B8274C15A106B39E63DBC3B4.jpg[/image]



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