German 88's (Full Version)

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Resisti -> German 88's (5/16/2001 4:10:00 PM)

In the German OOB there two types of this gun,one coded as AT gun,the other as Flak or something(sorry dont have the OOB in front of me..). I'd like to know,in game terms,which are the differences between the two(accuracy?,rate of fire? etc.) and according to you which of the two is overall the best (considering to use it in AT role..) Txs.



Don Doom -> (5/16/2001 6:43:00 PM)

They are the same weopon. The only difference is the flak 18 carries more HE rounds for AAA. The Flak/Pak 18 are the same performance wise. :)



lnp4668 -> (5/16/2001 6:49:00 PM)

The size of the flak 88 AT is also smaller to represent its lower profile compare to the AA.



Flashfyre -> (5/16/2001 7:03:00 PM)

The 88mm ATG is smaller, has fewer crewmen, it's rangefinder value is lower, and is only available after January 1944. It's rarity value is lower (better chance to get more of them), and it is supplied with more AP rounds. Also, it's accuracy is higher, and it has a higher penetration potential (due to HEAT/APCR rounds being available for it). Before 1944, you don't have a choice: the 88mm AA gun is the only one available. After 1944, I'd take the ATG over the AA.



Mike Rothery -> (5/16/2001 7:07:00 PM)

The one designated as an AT gun cannot shoot at aircraft. The one marked Heavy Flak can shoot at aircraft. (As I have said many times before it shouldn't be in the game, as having a gun that instantaneously switches from ground targets to an AA role is nonsense for heavy FLAK with time fused HE. Likewise the 88 was near useless at taking on fast low level aircraft)



Charles2222 -> (5/16/2001 8:09:00 PM)

I think some of us may be getting these mixed up. It's news to me that the ATG version has a smaller size and is only available after 1/44. The 88 we're speaking of has the same picture in each case, and they're both available in '39. The only differences I know of is that the AT version has the inability to fire at aircraft and also has considerably more AP rounds.



lnp4668 -> (5/16/2001 9:06:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22: I think some of us may be getting these mixed up. It's news to me that the ATG version has a smaller size and is only available after 1/44. The 88 we're speaking of has the same picture in each case, and they're both available in '39. The only differences I know of is that the AT version has the inability to fire at aircraft and also has considerably more AP rounds.
You are right, there is the 88mm Pak43 ATG, 88mm Flak18, and 88mm Flak18 AT



kutalik -> (5/16/2001 9:29:00 PM)

Wasn't there also some deal with the electric setup for the 88mm that made it difficult for its crews to switch between AT and AA modes?



Mike Rothery -> (5/16/2001 10:13:00 PM)

There is an existing thread on this debate. http://www.matrixgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=26&t=000105



Del -> (5/16/2001 10:55:00 PM)

You might want to ask Rommel about the effectiveness of his 88 Flak guns against the Brits Matildas in France. If I remember correctly they did quite well without any modifications. Also he used them to great advantage in North Africa. They had the same carriage for towing but I can't say if they were modified in any way. I've also seen pictures of the same guns in Barbarossa on AT duty. Again, I can't say if they were modified in any way. Bottom line, if it was done historically then it can be done in the game. BTW, how long will this debate go on? I'd put my money on forever. ;)



Mike Rothery -> (5/17/2001 5:02:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Del: You might want to ask Rommel about the effectiveness of his 88 Flak guns against the Brits Matildas in France. If I remember correctly they did quite well without any modifications. Also he used them to great advantage in North Africa. They had the same carriage for towing but I can't say if they were modified in any way. I've also seen pictures of the same guns in Barbarossa on AT duty. Again, I can't say if they were modified in any way. Bottom line, if it was done historically then it can be done in the game. BTW, how long will this debate go on? I'd put my money on forever. ;)
ahhhhhhhhh the debate goes on because the concept is so clear to some, yet ceaselessly obfuscated by irrelevant information. :eek: When they dragged an 88 up to the front line it was for ground action OK. That is what Rommel did, Halfaya Pass and all that. I have noooo problem with a FLAK18/36 being used in a direct fire role. BUT when they were so deployed, they could not shoot in an effective AA mode without more people, changing ammo, unpacking the predictor (which propebaly was left in the rear) blah blah....I'll be generous and say it could get off a shot in AA after 2-3 turns in SPWAW time. Now some facts: they didn't deploy these big AA guns in the front line for AA purposes, the big AA guns were useless at shooting fast low flying aircraft (in fact they just became an easy target for strafers and had to light FLAK to protect them), and only the Germans trained their crews to engage ground targets. Think of it like this; you would not put a 240mm rail mounted artillery piece on the map in SPWAW would you....couldn't hit anything, minimum range and all that. So why do we want to put heavy FLAK on the same map when they shouldn't be able to do more to attacking aircraft than atract attention to themselves. Leave them in the game as direct fire weapons only. :rolleyes:



john g -> (5/17/2001 5:19:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rothery: ahhhhhhhhh the debate goes on because the concept is so clear to some, yet ceaselessly obfuscated by irrelevant information. :eek: Now some facts: they didn't deploy these big AA guns in the front line for AA purposes, the big AA guns were useless at shooting fast low flying aircraft (in fact they just became an easy target for strafers and had to light FLAK to protect them), and only the Germans trained their crews to engage ground targets. :rolleyes:
It was a question of doctrine for some armies. The British did consider using the 3.7in AA gun as a heavy AT gun in North Africa. I found one referance to it's use in that role in the first assaults on Tobruk. The reason that it wasn't used for AT use? The 2pdr was an established weapon, and there was the 25pdr GH as a backup. By the time that the 6pdr started getting issued there were over 20000 2pdrs stockpiled in England. The British didn't have an equivelent weapon until the war's end when they experimented with a 32pdr AT gun. By then the day of the towed AT gun had passed. You might be interested to know that much of the he fired by the German 88 were not contact fused shells. They were time fused shells fired to burst in the air above the target. The same shells that the gun would fire against planes. thanks, John.



panda124c -> (5/17/2001 5:26:00 AM)

I don't see a dabate the 88 was an AA gun. It was issued to AA units, commanders found out that it made a great AT gun so they assigned them to that duty from the AA units. When dug-in for AT work there was not enough room to use them as AA guns. Pissed off the Lufwaffa since they owned most of the AA guns. The Army did have some AA units. Later in the war there was a special built 88 for AT only Pak 43 ( I believe) which had a two wheel carrage and was very low. Also the later 88 AA guns could be fired from their trailers. Now about tracking low flying aircraft, I don't think so, the time to traverse 360 degree in high gear (hand cranked)was 33.9 sec, in low gear (also hand cranked) was 69.79 sec. Source TME9-369A War Department Technical Manual "German 88-mm Antiaircraft Gun Material" 29 June 1943. :rolleyes:



john g -> (5/17/2001 5:39:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Del: You might want to ask Rommel about the effectiveness of his 88 Flak guns against the Brits Matildas in France. If I remember correctly they did quite well without any modifications. be done in the game. BTW, how long will Also he used them to great advantage in North Africa. They had the same carriage for towing but I can't say if they were modified in any way. I've also seen pictures of the same guns in Barbarossa on AT duty. Again, I can't say if they were modified in any way. Bottom line, if it was done historically then it canthis debate go on? I'd put my money on forever. ;)
Later the guns were modified for use as AT guns including mounting a gun shield (which the game doesn't model for any gun). However, there were always flak batteries located where they might have an effect. Read Luck's "Panzer Leader" about how he stumbled across a flak battery that was in the right place to stop a British attack in Northern France in 44. They were Luftwaffe troops that he ordered to fight the tanks and not pull back. Of course any attempt to change the various flak guns to second line troops, since they were primarily manned by Luftwaffe would probobly be met with cries of German bashing. One of the few downsides to the 88 flak was its inability to fire downward more than 3 degrees. If mounted level on a hill it shouldn't be able to fire at targets below it, but since the game doesn't go into that kind of detail we just have to live with how it works. If we could just get better numbers for the 76(r) AT gun then the 88 flak might not be so over used. I just read about a action where a gunner with SK288 firing his 76(r) took out enough tanks in one fight in North Africa to earn a Knights Cross, something not many AT gunners managed. thanks, John.



Bonzo -> (5/17/2001 6:33:00 AM)

IIRC, The 88 flak guns do not fire at aircraft in v5. Their presence in the OOBs is to allow the historical recreation of battles where the Flak 88 was used to attack ground targets, the first instances being in the Spanish civil war. The arguments made about difficulty tracking fast, low targets & the moving of high altitude bombers to a type of off-board bombardment eliminated the type of airborne target the 88 was designed for from the game. [ May 16, 2001: Message edited by: Bonzo ]



Mike Rothery -> (5/17/2001 6:55:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Bonzo: IIRC, The 88 flak guns do not fire at aircraft in v5. Their presence in the OOBs is to allow the historical recreation of battles where the Flak 88 was used to attack ground targets, the first instances being in the Spanish civil war. The arguments made about difficulty tracking fast, low targets & the moving of high altitude bombers to a type of off-board bombardment eliminated the type of airborne target the 88 was designed for from the game. [ May 16, 2001: Message edited by: Bonzo ]
If you're right, then I'll be very happy. But I think that the Heavy Flak class 88's do still shoot at aircraft.



Charles2222 -> (5/17/2001 7:13:00 AM)

john g: Totally at random (I don't believe in chance, but for ease of discussion I'll keep the 'random' I just used [glory to God!]), I opened the book to which you referred as I have a copy. Pg. 194, these were the words:
quote:

The young captain realized that I was in earnest. "I bow to force. What must I do?" (My comments here: - On the previous page, Luck had threatened to shoot him if this Lufwaffe captain didn't use the four guns in an ATG role). "Here place this gun in the apple orchard. The corn over there is so high that you will be well protected and just have a field of fire across it. Shoot every tank you see. I'll see if I can send you a platoon of grenadiers to guard you against surprise attacks. Should the situation become critical for you, destroy your guns and withdraw to the south. I hope our Tiger battalion will soon be able to mount a counterattack from the right flank. With them and with you we should be able to beat back the enemy attack, especially as it's not accompanied by infantry as far as I can tell. Listen, I'll be back in half an hour. All clear?" He still seemed to be undecided, but finally nodded. "Okay Major."
Now I think what you were trying to point out, was if this gun was so unready for being switched from AA to AT role, just why would Major Luck want a Luftwaffe captain to adjust to the AT role, as his battery of four guns had been bypassed to the north by enemy tanks? You recall how the Major said he would see the 88flak captain in 30 minutes? Here's another quote from pg. 197:
quote:

After the arrival of the reconnaissance battalion I felt that I had stablized my right flank to some extent. I had still not has time to change, let alone have something to eat. For the next few hours everything hung on the battery at Cagney. I got into my tank again and rolled cautiously to into the village. By the church I stopped the tank and ran to the four guns, where an almost indescribable sight met my eyes: -The 8.8cm cannons were firing one salvo after the other. One could see the shots flying through the corn like torpedoes. The men on the guns were proud of their first engagement as an antitank unit. All four guns were intact and had not been attacked. -In the extensive cornfields to the north of the village stood at least 40 British tanks, on fire or shot up. I saw how the tanks that had already crossed the main road were slowly rolling back.



Mike Rothery -> (5/17/2001 7:30:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22: Now I think what you were trying to point out, was if this gun was so unready for being switched from AA to AT role, just why would Major Luck want a Luftwaffe captain to adjust to the AT role, as his battery of four guns had been bypassed to the north by enemy tanks?
[/QUOTE] You missed the point...it is not switching from AA to AT, but from AT back to AA that was the problem! If an enemy aircraft had come along after the guns had been redeployed, would the 88's have been able to shoot in an AA role....no they would not. You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't have the same weapon set up for ground action and be used for AA in the same turn. When the British pilots flew Rhubarb missions over France in 41 & 42 they flew very low as they crossed the coast....why? They knew the 88 FLAK belt along the coast had very little chance to hit a fighter at low altitude, that's why. Yes, put the FLAK 18/36 in the game, but set the unit class to AT gun only.



Charles2222 -> (5/17/2001 9:21:00 AM)

Mike: Thepoint seems to be how quick could one switch it. If it were I, and the AA role was of any use, then hopefully I would deploy them to overlook my forces, as indeed I do, and not put them on the front. So, what one would do, is set them up for the AA role. Hopefully the rest of your defenses could hold out long enough till they were switched back to AT again, which given from Major Luck's story must've took 20 minutes at the most (assuming he returned in 30 minutes and their firing which had started well before he arrived would've taken 10 minutes. In any case if I were forced to choose either AA or AT role, I would likely come up with some split, which would have to hold out until the others were converted to the role needed as the changing situation might demand. Here's an article I found with a websearch. http://homepage.tinet.ie/~nightingale/88flak.html



Del -> (5/17/2001 9:44:00 AM)

How do you modify an 88 to change from an AA role to an AT role? You lower the barrel and chamber the proper round. That's all. How do you change it back to an AA role? You elevate the barrel and chamber the proper round. It's not rocket science. I do have to say that using them to fire at low flying aircraft is a bit unlikely. And firing at a tank one second and an aircraft the next is equally unlikely. Of course any unit firing 13+ times in a turn because of the "special op fire" is equally as unlikely and annoying. But I live with it and go on.



Mike Rothery -> (5/17/2001 10:51:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Del: How do you modify an 88 to change from an AA role to an AT role? You lower the barrel and chamber the proper round. That's all. How do you change it back to an AA role? You elevate the barrel and chamber the proper round. It's not rocket science.
Sorry but your wrong :) If the 88 is deployed for AT work, and you then want to change to an AA role, do the following; 1. Check that you loaction has all round visibility, and if not then move. 2. Go to the rear and collect the AA predictor, bring it forward and set it up. 3. Change from an 8 man crew to an eleven man crew, and move the crew to different positions on the gun. 4. Lay out a heap of HE time fuse shells ready to set with the fusing machine. 5. Wait for the enemy aircraft to show. There are two issues to think about....firstly can an 88 set up for AT work quickly switch back to an AA mode? secondly, is there any point in having any heavy FLAK gun in SPWAW? The answer to both is, no. Now before I get the next counter argument, let me counter it before you start. :D Why not set up your 88's always with the predictor attached, and the HE ammo layed out? That way you're ready for any eventuality. Why not? because the predictor was not issued per gun, but per section of guns...all the guns in the section would always have to be within about 50m of the predictor. Why not? because if you are going to lob shells at tanks, then they are probably going to shoot back. The last thing you want is a heap of unnecessary equipment to pack up when you need to scoot, and lots of shells lying round waiting to get hit by something. Please guys, you have to undertand that an 88 was not just a bigger version of a 40mm Bofors gun....they work on an entirely different concept. If you don't understand go find a book on the subject. The ammo in the 88 was time fused....you have to predict (about 10-15 seconds ahead of time) the distance from the gun you want the shell to explode. Ask yourself this, if the 88 was able to shoot at low flying aircraft, why bother to have 20mm and 37mm FLAK guns? Why not just standardise of the 88 that can do all the AT work at the same time? Each AA gun in the Germany line up; 20mm 37mm, 88mm, 120mm had its own niche. Sure thay each overlapped a bit, but you needed all of them to achieve a complete AA solution. The light FLAK couldn't hit anything more than a couple of thousand feet up....that's were the 88 comes in up to its ceiling, then the 120mm for the really high altitude stuff. Likewise the big guns were hopeless at the low and fast targets...sure they could lob some shells, but with no chance to hit. The standard 88 FLAK section had, by 1944, its own light FLAK to protect it from strafers.



Stukadawg -> (5/17/2001 11:12:00 AM)

Wow! So much to learn here. As far as the game is concerned, I'm glad that the same gun is available as two seperate entries for both roles. That way when rarity becomes an issue, and the AT guns are redded out, I just go buy the AA guns. In the game, the differences don't limit it's usefullness in the AT role. I even forget which ones I bought as AA and AT. The fact is, once enemies are within sight and range, both 88s do just fine. I haven't had a chance to find out if the AT version will attack aircraft (it shouldn't for realistic purposes), but the AAs will op-fire at ground targets (at least I'm pretty sure they will).



Mikimoto -> (5/17/2001 2:15:00 PM)

Hello. I know another use for the 88's. They were used as bulldozers. In the winter of 1941, Hitler asked the CiC of Army Group North (Manstein?) why they did not use the 88's in anti-tank role. They had heavy problems dealing with T-34's and Kv's all along the front. Manstein said they were using those heavies in point blank fire against the ground, making holes for the grunts not to die frozen at night. :D



jambo1 -> (5/17/2001 7:07:00 PM)

My experiance with both 88's is this...the AA 88 will if deployed close to the front likely fire in AT role and if in overwatch it will use it's shots on any aircraft present, I used to like have them around when I had to contend with the likes of B25 H's , but against smaller fighters my quad 20's would always but prefered. AA 88's should remain in the OOB if for no other reason than to be able to put them in to defensive positions and such. As for 88's in my core forces, I'd only be towing them around in the early parts of the war, once I can buy at least 75 L48's or tank destroyers I replace them. Mobility is King. As for historical use, I think it is mote point as to whether an AA 88's would switch back to AA if the enemy has closed to the point that it is now fighting in a ground role. Maybe AA pieces can twigged to not be able to revert to AA once they have joined the ground fray?? That would solve the problem for the game at our scale and force use to think twice before we make our AA gunners join the ground battle, after all we usually would rather have them swatting down Zoomies. :D



Charles2222 -> (5/17/2001 7:52:00 PM)

quote:

Of course any unit firing 13+ times in a turn because of the "special op fire" is equally as unlikely and annoying. But I live with it and go on.
Not too unlikely. Actually the 88 could fire 15-20 rounds per minute. So if you look at the opfire as 1/2 a turn and each turn is between 2-5 minutes, it's not at all unlikely, and I would think there were guns that could and did fire at an even higher rate.



Larry Holt -> (5/17/2001 8:05:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22: Not too unlikely. Actually the 88 could fire 15-20 rounds per minute. So if you look at the opfire as 1/2 a turn and each turn is between 2-5 minutes, it's not at all unlikely, and I would think there were guns that could and did fire at an even higher rate.
Can you clairify this firing rate? I believe that it is for unaimed aerial targets where the gun is firing "up there" to put flak in proximity to high flying aircraft. Hitting a point target like a tank requires more target acquisition time. I see the acquisition time, not the weapons rate of fire as the limiting issue.



Charles2222 -> (5/17/2001 8:06:00 PM)

Mike Rothery: Once on the subject of the 88 on another thread, perhaps it was you, someone believed that it took forever to unload an 88 off the trailer (nevermind the fact that it could fire off the trailer too). I presented website documentation that proved that belief erroneous. A trained crew could get it off the trailer and ready to fire in 20 seconds. It was loading it back on the trailer that was time consuming, but only 60 seconds at that. The first question that comes to my mind, is how was the gun prepared, as much as one could prepare it, for it's next role while in transport? Now, if one bases all useage of 88 transporting as general practice of the last hyperlink I had, then it's commonly was transported in being in something of the AA role. So the question begged, is that what the other website stated, that since it only took 20 seconds to be ready to fire, off the trailer, were they referring to it being ready in the AA role, or the AT role, or either? I would suggest the AT role was an easier adjustment, but even if they were talking specifically of having the gun as ready in transport as it could be for the AT role, and then unpacking it for AT, and it took 20 seconds, just how long would unpacking to an AA role take? As well, would it be quciker to unpack from transport to being able to fire it, or to switch the gun already on the ground to it's opposite role? I've yet to see anything definitive except how long it took to unpack and fire, and to pack it back up.



Charles2222 -> (5/17/2001 10:23:00 PM)

Larry Holt: I'm just stating the dry statistics from the achtungpanzer website. Whether they could fire very accurately at that rate I don't know. I would assume they could fire at a higher rate if firing at the same target, which would require less movement. Here's the direct reference: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/88mm.htm BTW the book reference that was made, part of it I did not quote, either before or after what I did quote, Major Luck spoke of employing the 88s on "hills". Apparently the bad lowering was made up for by placing on a non-flat part of the hill, or else the poor lowering didn't matter (the guns mentioned were in the AT role when on the hill as well). I could drag out the quote when I get home if anyone feels it's necessary. [ May 17, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]



Mike Rothery -> (5/17/2001 10:58:00 PM)

I don't recall seeing a reference to setup time, but I'm happy to bring some figures to the table. The figure of 20 seconds sounds like parade ground wank to me. The figure in my reference is: "Time to change from traveling to firing position: approx. 2 1/2 minutes with 6 man crew" The 88 by Chris Ellis Now I would assume from the photos that the time quoted is to fire with wheels still attached which was OK for AT work, but the setup for AA work would be more like 15 to 20 minutes. Some other relevant quotes from the same book; "Time fuses were normally used for HE, but a percussion fuse was developed in the last year of the war" " A heavy FLAKbatterie would have four 88s and two 20mm guns when part of a field division. The 20mm guns were to protect the 88s and were sometimes vehicle-mounted. Each battery also had a predictor." "For direct fire the telescopic sight ZF20E was used.....When used against land, sea or air targets in conjunction with the predictor/director a panoramic telescope RblF32 was placed in a holder on top of the recuperator to establish the initial orientation of the gun with director." "The 88s primary (fire control) equipment was KommandoGeraet 36 used in conjunction with the azimuth and elevation indicators and the fuse setter on the mounting. It was linked to the mount by cables.....This equipment required a crew of 11 to track the target, take readings, and feed in information....The KdoGr 36 was supplied one per battery (ie. one per four 88s)...was carried on a short cruciform carriage..(and) had its own towing vehicle." "In addition to the anti-aircraft sights and controls the weapons were fitted with telescopic sights for anti-tank work and later in the war some had the transmission systems removed or isolated so they were only suitable for anti-tank fire." Ok I'll do you a deal.....lets leave both FLAK 18/36's in the game...the one classified as Heavy FLAK and the one classified as an AT gun.....but limit the version that can fire in an AA role to buying it only in batteries of four guns, plus the two 20mm's plus the extra predictor/director unit and then code the game so that they can't fire in AA role in forest hexes and must be all squashed into one or two hexes at most, and give them a really appalling chance to hit low flying fighter aircraft. If you can simulate all of that then keep them in the game. :D If you can't simulate those restrictions in the game, then take the Heavy FLAK classified 8.8cm FLAK 18/36 out of the game, but leave the Anti Tank Gun classified 8.8cm FLAK 18/36 in.



Mike Rothery -> (5/17/2001 11:13:00 PM)

I had a look at the Achtung panzer site as was suggested. Nice pics, doesn't add much to the debate unfortunately. I suugest that the 20 seconds may be the time to actually attach the bogies...and bears litlle relevance to the time required to bring the gun into action. My reference has the reverse pack up time at 3 1/2 minutes with a 6 man crew (6 + 2 for AT role, 9 + 2 for AA)



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