Police soon to be eavesdropping on your Internet Connection? (Full Version)

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Veldor -> Police soon to be eavesdropping on your Internet Connection? (5/1/2003 10:22:37 AM)

As part of further electronic laws reform in the US (if not the entire world), another major step is underway being intiated by Cisco Systems (The worlds largest provider of internet routers) to have built into all routers "undetectable eavesdropping" capabilities for law enforcement.

ISP's are receiving RECORD numbers of subpoena's these days due to all the illegal activities we are all doing (from music game and movie piracy to identity theft to auction fraud to credit card theft to kiddie porn collectors and on and on and on)...

Most sectors have LONG since wanted better Internet Policing and the recent Terrorist Attacks of 911 have finally provided the "cover" for such laws and abilities to be put into place and the appropriate agencies and companies pressured into compliance.

As I've already stated in another thread, I believe all of these reforms will do FAR LESS harm than good. There is SO much abuse and illegal activities on the NET it is SICKENING. And the funny thing is EVERYONE knows it. You don't have to view an IT departments surfcontrol or firewall logs or visit an ISP's monitoring center to realize it. Everyone already knows it.. .mostly because everyone is already doing something "illegal" in one form or another on the internet..

So watch what you type back to me... You never know who may now be "listening"....

Go Department of Homeland Security...!!!

A recent article on this topic can be found at:

http://news.com.com/2010-1071-997528.html?tag=fd_nc_1



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/1/2003 8:36:14 PM)

Most might not realise it, but here in Canada, the RCMP (when not making themselves look dumb), actually have more powers to snoop on average, than is normally routinely allowed in the US.

I am already fairly used to the idea of living in a country where it might be unwise to do somethings.

But then, shouldn't it already be unwise to do certain things?

As it goes though, I don't subscribe to police state hysteria.

I like the cops myself.

No I am not some rabid curtail your civil liberties sort of nutcase. I just realise, the establishment is not out to get me, joe nobody, at every opportunity.

What would the world be like if there was zero crime, even small white lie sorts of crimes? Hmmm probably very nice actually.

I have zero verifiable evidence, that I have ever met a single solitary individual that has not used pirated software either on purpose or because they were unable to tell it was.

No don't anyone start making claims of purity, don't want to hear it.

Personally, I would find any male unwilling to look at the naked female form, as somehow mentally disturbed.
I would find any individual, unwilling to use something for free that is normally expensive, very suspicious.

Last time I checked, all the people I knew were ordinary human beings.

But I would not object to people offering me methods to clean up some of the weaknesses along the way.



Veldor -> (5/1/2003 9:49:46 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]I have zero verifiable evidence, that I have ever met a single solitary individual that has not used pirated software either on purpose or because they were unable to tell it was.[/B][/QUOTE]

I wonder what people would think if they saw their name on an FBI "watch list"?

As that article partially aludes to and is verifiable elsewhere, the FBI and police already have the ability to determine who is pirating, what they are pirating, and how much. The main issue with piracy is that there are simply "more serious" crimes being committed on the internet and not enough resources to go after all the pirates, thus they focus on the worst pirates.

Enter this new router eavesdropping software. Now the ability to "filter", "sort", etc log files and so on is greatly enhanced so it takes FAR less effort to gather info on where you are going and what you are doing.

Guess what happens when you pirate even a single file? Yes you can now be "legally" watched by any law enforcement agency. They can use these newer methods to "collect" info on what you are doing. And if they like they can then choose to prosecute or simply turn your name over to the BSA or whoever else might like to sue you.

[QUOTE][B]
Personally, I would find any male unwilling to look at the naked female form, as somehow mentally disturbed.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Fortunately that usually isn't illegal (except maybe by your wife's laws)..

[QUOTE][B]
I would find any individual, unwilling to use something for free that is normally expensive, very suspicious.
[/B][/QUOTE]
When put that way perhaps, but your leaving out the part about "stealing". Do you steal things from the supermarket that are normally expensive so that you get them for free? In their ignorance people try to justify electronic theft by telling themselves it doesn't hurt anybody or even that its not a crime. Or perhaps that it shouldn't be a crime because "They already have enough money". Does the fact that you can't afford a Corvette mean you can just take one for free? Can't afford that new $45 hardbound novel? So just zerox it or scan it in for free from a friend?

The only one that perplexes me more than internet piracy is cable/satellite theft. That is so BLATANTLY illegal and prosecutable under current US laws (and the recent changes are making it an even more serious crime). It is also easier to detect than most people think as well (especially in the case of cable as satellite theft generally requires quite a bit of sophistication now).

[QUOTE][B]
But I would not object to people offering me methods to clean up some of the weaknesses along the way. [/B][/QUOTE]

I could quote a million sources and articles and not one person would alter their illegal net activities. Thats just reality. The only thing that works in America is for the 6'oclock news to repeatedly run stories of how Joe Blows life and family are now in jeopardy because he has been charged with 1000 counts of electronic theft of intellectual property or whatever... One of those per night for a week and I'd say KAZAA logons drop instantenously by 50%.

All the stuff necessary to do that more easily will soon be in place, and the better laws to go with them. It's really a roll of the dice. Just hope your not one of the unlucky ba$tards they pick to make an example of on the news... (They recently did one on a guy who only had I think it was 65 pirated music files on his machine, didn't distribute or anything, but being sued for over $100,000).

Now who doesn't have at least that many?



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/1/2003 10:07:09 PM)

Agree totally Veldor.

Stealing is stealing no matter how it is painted.

I would pity the person wanting to make an "example of me" of course. Sadly I have no worth (economically speaking).

I live by the grace of the state, I have nothing to take.

It would "cost" the government more cash to take my pathetic possessions, than they are worth.



TenaciousD -> (5/2/2003 12:03:28 AM)

"Just hope your not one of the unlucky ba$tards they pick to make an example of on the news... (They recently did one on a guy who only had I think it was 65 pirated music files on his machine, didn't distribute or anything, but being sued for over $100,000)."

Poor guy.
The US Administraion is going to start creating terrorists in their own country. I read elsewhere that there is a bill (not yet passed) called PatriotII (I think that was it). It includes the internet thing in this post but thats just the start. There will be MASSIVE changes to the rights of civilians. eg You can be arrested and denied access to a lawyer



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/2/2003 12:24:40 AM)

Being arrested and denied access to a lawyer won't fly in the US, remember the nation has the right to bear arms.

You don't think a bunch of arms yankees will let that go on far do ya.



Marc von Martial -> (5/2/2003 12:47:01 AM)

[QUOTE]eg You can be arrested and denied access to a lawyer[/QUOTE]

Halleluja



Charles2222 -> (5/2/2003 1:47:46 AM)

Les the Sarge 9-1:
quote:

It would "cost" the government more cash to take my pathetic possessions, than they are worth.


You make the mistake of thinking the government has a limited pocket. What does cost matter to one who lives on the dole? Recall another thing as well, they need 'examples' and what better examples than those who haven't the financial means to a decent attorney? IOW, you can't make examples out of people who are rich enough to get off.



Veldor -> (5/2/2003 2:12:22 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles_22
[B]Les the Sarge 9-1:

You make the mistake of thinking the government has a limited pocket. What does cost matter to one who lives on the dole? Recall another thing as well, they need 'examples' and what better examples than those who haven't the financial means to a decent attorney? IOW, you can't make examples out of people who are rich enough to get off. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is an excellent point, and the government is under TREMENDOUS pressure especially from the motion picture association and the music industry to do something about the current situation.

So people who have little money and have violated the law in only a limited way are excellent targets. And that person should hardly complain, they are after all breaking the law and even knowingly at that.



SLAAKMAN -> (5/6/2003 7:15:58 AM)

"This is an excellent point, and the government is
under TREMENDOUS pressure especially from the motion
picture association and the music industry to do
something about the current situation"

Oh I get it. We're supposed to abrogate our property
rights to placate the "righteous" Coke-dealers of the
RIAA?? They are the real criminals. I wont be buying
any Cisco chipsets in the near future.

So Declan McCullagh, the spokesman for the Bolshevik
Big Sister Politically Correct Kommissar is mouthing
off to support the latest campaign to destroy privacy
and stretch the Feminazi tentacles grip on America's
freedom. Veldor would be right at home in Pinko China
with their anal commissar fanatics watching everyone
tie their shoes in the proper PC way. Freedom Fighters
like myself will continue to resist the rat-network of
hypocrits like the RIAA and other criminal
institutions who pursue destruction of privacy,
property rights and free speech. To hell with them.
Long Live the Freedom Fighters!!!!



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/6/2003 7:44:53 AM)

A scenario.

The "man" decides lets make an example of how even a nobody is not excepted.

So they show up and get annoyed that I am not a paragon of virtue and drag me to court.

They now have to hire a lawyer for their side (because lawyers don't work for free regardless of the cause eh).

Of course I don't have a lawyer (no shock there) and frankly I could care less if the court appointed lawyer is not as well paid as the competition.
The heart of ther matter, is the "man" gets to pay for the offense and the defense.

But then it's all tax dollars correct. not like they have any trouble using up yet more of our tax dollars on yet another fools errand.

And odds are I am screwed. But then, like I am not already.

Today as we speak I have nothing to take, and I won't have anything to take tomorrow.

The worse they make things for me, the more they will have to rebuild themselves. Dumb I realise, but we are after all talking about "the system" here eh.

If bugging me is their idea of "sending a message", then I think they are going to find, that no one cares.

The only one worried about me, is me. And my life is already at the bottom rung, so kicking me off it won't cause me any further harm.



Veldor -> (5/6/2003 9:52:28 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Today as we speak I have nothing to take, and I won't have anything to take tomorrow.
[/B][/QUOTE]

They can take more of your freedoms away by putting you in jail.

Even a homeless man has the freedom to go about where he chooses and do pretty much as he pleases, subject to the laws of the land.

But in jail even that is gone.

Of course it's not likely at all that under current laws or even upcoming laws that you'd get jail time simply for piracy, use of anonymity software, and so on.

But they could choose to "misinterpret" some sites you "accidentaly" visited and so on if they really wanted to.

And there are two ways for the motion picture association and the others to get money. They can either sue you for it, or make it the old fashion way by making you PAY them for what they actually sell.

It is with the later in mind that they prosecute you anyways, money or no money, to scare others into compliance.

Hasn't happened nearly enough yet but with the new laws and new technologies being put in place it soon will be much more common.



tarendelcymir -> (5/6/2003 10:49:38 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
[B]They can take more of your freedoms away by putting you in jail.

Even a homeless man has the freedom to go about where he chooses and do pretty much as he pleases, subject to the laws of the land.

But in jail even that is gone.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Of course, you could make the case that a lot of homeless people would actually be better of in jail, since they'd have walls around them, a relatively warm bed, regular meals, and possibly cable televsion. :)

Sort of off the topic, I know, but just felt like pointing it out.



Veldor -> (5/6/2003 10:53:56 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tarendelcymir
[B]Of course, you could make the case that a lot of homeless people would actually be better of in jail, since they'd have walls around them, a relatively warm bed, regular meals, and possibly cable televsion. :)

Sort of off the topic, I know, but just felt like pointing it out. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, certain criminals have even admitted committing crimes for that reason. More common though is someone who commits a crime "to get thrown back in jail" merely because they don't know how to function in or contribute to society so they actually feel more "at home" in prison.

What you propose sounds like a decent idea if your homeless but I suppose thats why they hype up the whole "being everyones boyfriend" type thing :( We may all want warm beds and regular meals but not many of us want to be passed around in the shower by other men.

I think you need to commit a white collar crime so you go to a white collar prison... But then again those types of people are probably smart enough to get a job anyway... or certainly not very likely to be homeless...



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/6/2003 6:48:37 PM)

Well hmmm, no I don't want to be put in a jail, don't think anyone does.

Interesting point to make though, when during my disability hearing they asked me "what would I do if I was not accepted?".

My answer was I would likely die penniless on the street.

I wasn't kidding.

My whole life is basically controlled by the system to some extent.

I have gotten used to playing it by their rules. Until they actually get off their butts and change those rules, I really don't intend to lose much sleep over it.

As it currently stands, the world doesn't care about copywrite. Oh sure there are of course those hurt by it. But there is always going to be someone hurt by some injustice.

The vast majority of the world's suffering would be impossible, if mankind grew up and realised money is a tool we have outgrown.

We don't need to fret over copywrite if we don't have money in the equation. After all, if you never pay for things, what are you losing?

Dreamland vision perhaps, but at least my own mind has evolved to the point I can at least see the dream. I just wish the rest of my race would hurry up and catch up. I would really prefer the wonderful cash free society of Star Trek, without the need to obliterate society as a means to achieving it.



SLAAKMAN -> (5/6/2003 11:12:46 PM)

Dammit Sarge! Just when I think Im going to throw you to the sharks, you come back with another centrist axiom and once again I feel relieved. What would we Yankee German Romanticists do without our Canadian Priesthood standing by to keep us in check??:confused:
Slaak:D



Veldor -> (5/7/2003 1:19:17 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]We don't need to fret over copywrite if we don't have money in the equation. After all, if you never pay for things, what are you losing?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Everyone has money. Some just have more than others. And its the poorest of people that are normally the most addicted to spending it on what they least need to (thus perhaps while at least certain people remain poor). Video Games, Movies, Music, Cigarettes, Drugs, whatever.

If people "justify" stealing copyrighted material because they are poor and cant really afford to actually "pay" for it, then since generally they would still acknowledge that it is at least "technically" wrong, what would be "right"?? Having two different prices on the box? You pay $10.00 for Uncommon Valor because you are poor and I pay the $50.00 price because I am not? Isn't that essentially what it comes down to? Those who have the money should be required to spend it and those that dont should not have to spend it on the very same things?



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/7/2003 2:13:27 AM)

Veldor you might have missed the kernel behind my money comment, but that's easy to do.

No I was not referring to haves and have nots.

Everyone is subject to "money" both those with Bill Gates sums of it, governmental sums of it, and even schmucks living on hand outs.

If the world gave up the need to even "use" money, this whole copywrite issue would be a waste of time.

If I wrote a great novel in a world where there was no money, if I wrote merely cause it was a skill I enjoyed, but there was no money in the world, then I would not require any "protection" from copywrite infringement, because there would be no reason to care.

I am speaking of a perfect world of course. Where I would not have to care a hoot if people copied my work and handed it around.

Right now, the only reason for "protection" is because we are all forced to pursue cash for things we need, that no one will give us for free. We are all essentially slaves to cash.

People will "steal" in all of its guises so long as money is required. There would be no theft, if it was just given away.
Strange concept I realise. The notion people could actually do something merely because it was needed to be done.

No small wonder, in spite of all of man's clever little technologies, I still percieve our race as an infantile petty little species at best.
We are clever, but not at all mature.



SLAAKMAN -> (5/7/2003 2:49:22 AM)

"We don't need to fret over copywrite if we don't have money in the equation. After all, if you never pay for things, what are you losing?"

Your absolutely right Sarge! Only the spoiled, anal retentive neurotics demand compensation for every second that passes by. Since hard working altruists such as ourselves create for the benefit of Gods creation as a whole then our sacrifices will not be in vain. For those that cant produce for the sake of providing for the innocent, then no compensation will ever be enough. ;)



Bernard -> (5/7/2003 5:36:02 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SLAAKMAN
[B]"We don't need to fret over copywrite if we don't have money in the equation. After all, if you never pay for things, what are you losing?"

Your absolutely right Sarge! Only the spoiled, anal retentive neurotics demand compensation for every second that passes by. Since hard working altruists such as ourselves create for the benefit of Gods creation as a whole then our sacrifices will not be in vain. For those that cant produce for the sake of providing for the innocent, then no compensation will ever be enough. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

I think Marx, Lenin and some others would agree.
however, it won't work as human race is incapable of doing the good for the good and work for the common benefit of the group.
Typical huma will live for himself, amass money/privilege/power for himself.
can't stop that.

that's why 'm ok for eavesdropping as long as they are intellignent enough to let small fishes run and not make just a case.
If they coul so easily spot/eavesdrop, how come we cannot catch pedophiles and other insanes ? i'd like to know every porn site is montored and any guy foud o a pedohile site would be prosecuted.

best regards



SLAAKMAN -> (5/7/2003 6:12:20 AM)

"I think Marx, Lenin and some others would agree."

You forgot to mention Christ. And those two imposters you mentioned didnt invent altruism, they destroyed it.

"however, it won't work as human race is incapable of doing the good for the good and work for the common benefit of the group.
Typical huma will live for himself, amass money/privilege/power for himself.
can't stop that."

Well the Bolshevik Thought Police had better follow the strict rules of Due Process according to the Bill of Rights before they falsely accuse me again or face the catastrophic consequences and many states are blatently in violation of this code. Christ warned of the ultimate fate of liars.

"that's why 'm ok for eavesdropping as long as they are intellignent enough to let small fishes run and not make just a case."

That presumes that there arent any dishonest cops in the ranks. Best regards on that.


"If they coul so easily spot/eavesdrop, how come we cannot catch pedophiles and other insanes ? i'd like to know every porn site is montored and any guy foud o a pedohile site would be prosecuted."

Porn is the last priority on any Libertarians list. Before more rescources are wasted by the new thought police to wage another witch hunt by invading everyones privacy I'd like to know whos holding the Feminazis and other totalitarians accountable for the grotesque and blatent violations that have utterly usurped our rights in the family courts!!! If the douchebags in the family courts ever try to take my daughter from me then they will regret the day they made that mistake.

[url]www.massoutrage.com[/url]



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/7/2003 7:20:31 AM)

Porn is the last priority on any Libertarians list. Before more rescources are wasted by the new thought police to wage another witch hunt by invading everyones privacy I'd like to know whos holding the Feminazis and other totalitarians accountable for the grotesque and blatent violations that have utterly usurped our rights in the family courts!!! If the douchebags in the family courts ever try to take my daughter from me then they will regret the day they made that mistake.

That was interesting to me as well.

They can tell me I can't look at porn, but the second some idiot tells me how to run my family, is the moment it gets lethal.

I generally use my intellect for silly pursuits, but when angry, I am a very mean person.



KG Erwin -> Well said, Brother Les! (5/7/2003 7:44:39 AM)

Amen, Les! I agree with you 100% on this. The net was intended for free expression, but there are extremists on the right AND left who don't wish free thought to be transmitted without monitoring or censorship. Who thought that freedom meant giving up so much of one's personal liberty?



Veldor -> (5/8/2003 5:01:13 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]If the world gave up the need to even "use" money, this whole copywrite issue would be a waste of time.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Never going to happen. Even money isn't a motivating enough factor for people to get educated or perform well at their jobs. Abuse is rampant everyone. Everyone is goofing off at work.

Making everything free would just make people even more lazy. Sure some would do things out of pure enjoyment, but the vast majority of us would just degrade our lives further into laziness.



SLAAKMAN -> (5/8/2003 8:15:37 AM)

......But laziness is a holy form of Slaakery and considered sacrosanct.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/8/2003 10:14:59 AM)

True some ARE lazy, but often it's because there is little motivation.

I have no problem with the idea of teaching for free. I would love to teach high school for the kicks. Seeing kids discover knowledge is so cool.

But no one wants my motivated un papered butt in their schools, their loss. I know I know what I know, I am content to share it where I can, and leave it at that.



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