RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES

RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (Full Version)

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STEF78 -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (10/28/2017 4:06:41 PM)
Real life let me today enough time to read the 3 threads about this game. I'm really impressed! What a colossal project. Congratulations Concerning the game itself, I think that the german side has slight advantage They did a very good job in the South and in the north Leningrad has Fallen The finns are blocked in the far north but it's not a real issue. The battle for Moscow will be decisive!

M60A3TTS -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (10/29/2017 2:41:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS No, it wasn't a fat finger. I only did two because I didn't have enough railcap left. I'll send you the rest later. Moscow is a good choice to evacuate them to! That U-2VS airbase didn't get much in the way of Luftwaffe love this turn, so like an obstinate child, it will kick and scream (by bombing you) you until you do. You're going to do my job for me whether you want to or not. [:'(]

Telemecus -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (10/29/2017 2:44:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS No, it wasn't a fat finger. I only did two because I didn't have enough railcap left. I'll send you the rest later. Moscow is a good choice to evacuate them to! That U-2VS airbase didn't get much in the way of Luftwaffe love this turn, so like an obstinate child, it will kick and scream (by bombing you) you until you do. You're going to do my job for me whether you want to or not. [:'(] I want to - we have lots of arriving bomber boys who want the practice! Just ran out of airfield bombing miles this time. Ask the coders to extend the 33%! But I think this confirms you are in the U2-VS club!

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (10/29/2017 2:56:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS No, it wasn't a fat finger. I only did two because I didn't have enough railcap left. I'll send you the rest later. Moscow is a good choice to evacuate them to! That U-2VS airbase didn't get much in the way of Luftwaffe love this turn, so like an obstinate child, it will kick and scream (by bombing you) you until you do. You're going to do my job for me whether you want to or not. [:'(] I want to - we have lots of arriving bomber boys who want the practice! Just ran out of airfield bombing miles this time. Ask the coders to extend the 33%! But I think this confirms you are in the U2-VS club! Next time I play I think I'm going to hold onto some U2's. I seem to kill a lot of AA guns (like the 88's) So I'm rethinking some things on these WWI era planes. They may be useful after all. But have to test things more :)

Telemecus -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (10/29/2017 2:58:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain Next time I play I think I'm going to hold onto some U2's. I seem to kill a lot of AA guns (like the 88's) So I'm rethinking some things on these WWI era planes. They may be useful after all. But have to test things more :) Oh no - the body snatchers got you too! What else have they done to your mind - spreadsheets?

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (10/29/2017 3:26:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain Next time I play I think I'm going to hold onto some U2's. I seem to kill a lot of AA guns (like the 88's) So I'm rethinking some things on these WWI era planes. They may be useful after all. But have to test things more :) Oh no - the body snatchers got you too! What else have they done to your mind - spreadsheets? No, no spreadsheets yet :( probably make me a much better player though.

M60A3TTS -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (10/29/2017 3:50:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS No, it wasn't a fat finger. I only did two because I didn't have enough railcap left. I'll send you the rest later. Moscow is a good choice to evacuate them to! That U-2VS airbase didn't get much in the way of Luftwaffe love this turn, so like an obstinate child, it will kick and scream (by bombing you) you until you do. You're going to do my job for me whether you want to or not. [:'(] I want to - we have lots of arriving bomber boys who want the practice! Just ran out of airfield bombing miles this time. Ask the coders to extend the 33%! But I think this confirms you are in the U2-VS club! I would never join a club that would have me as a member.

Zorch -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (10/29/2017 4:38:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS No, it wasn't a fat finger. I only did two because I didn't have enough railcap left. I'll send you the rest later. Moscow is a good choice to evacuate them to! That U-2VS airbase didn't get much in the way of Luftwaffe love this turn, so like an obstinate child, it will kick and scream (by bombing you) you until you do. You're going to do my job for me whether you want to or not. [:'(] I want to - we have lots of arriving bomber boys who want the practice! Just ran out of airfield bombing miles this time. Ask the coders to extend the 33%! But I think this confirms you are in the U2-VS club! I would never join a club that would have me as a member. Unless you're conscripted. [:D]

M60A3TTS -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (10/30/2017 1:53:59 PM)
15 September 1941 From AP Wire Services Radio Moscow reports that the trial of Defendant Hortlundski ended with the accused found guilty of the crimes specified under Articles 58-1b, 58-11 RSFSR Criminal Code. First Secretary of the USSR Josef Stalin reviewed and approved the courts findings. The defendant was executed at an unnamed location.

Zorch -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (10/30/2017 4:07:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS 15 September 1941 From AP Wire Services Radio Moscow reports that the trial of Defendant Hortlundski ended with the accused found guilty of the crimes specified under Articles 58-1b, 58-11 RSFSR Criminal Code. First Secretary of the USSR Josef Stalin reviewed and approved the courts findings. The defendant was executed at an unnamed location. Execution is too good for him. [:D] The Soviets should have used impalement, or drawn, quartered, and crucified.

M60A3TTS -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (10/30/2017 5:37:18 PM)
If Voroshilov loses Moscow, he may fare no better. [8\|]

Telemecus -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (10/30/2017 7:05:29 PM)
Teasing aside I do hope Panzerjaegar Hortlund does get back in touch. Hopefully whatever kept them gets sorted. Having planted an acorn that Stef78 above calls a "colossal project" which now has the enthusiasm and commitment of so many is something to be proud of. And with a brother team game that would make PH a grandfather - or is that mixing metaphors too much? I do hope when PH reads this they can get in touch as I do find it interesting to compare notes after the event - a sort of post-match analysis. And I was also interested in a sort of lessons learned about team games which PH's experience of the early turns from the Soviet side would be useful to know.

M60A3TTS -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/2/2017 2:53:48 PM)
Turn 15 is in dropbox.

Telemecus -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/5/2017 3:52:51 PM)
Turn 15 in dropbox - and I think the first time for a full four member team on the third day. Who says we cannot go faster than the actual event???!!! [:D]

M60A3TTS -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/5/2017 7:23:15 PM)
For those following this thread, I would make a suggestion of adding a house rule in your games. Specifically, both sides should be prohibited from conducting what amounts to precision bombing of industrial targets within cities by night. It was basically impossible with the technology of the day and doesn't even rate a "what-if?" discussion. It took the USAAF two years just to get a daylight precision raid down.

Zorch -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/5/2017 7:27:31 PM)
I entirely agree. The Soviets might have known where German factories were through espionage, but how could the Germans even know where the Soviet factories were?

charlie0311 -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/5/2017 9:05:27 PM)
My father flew 44 missions in B-17s over Germany mostly in '44 made a carreer of the AF and got pretty far. US never got remotely close to precision bombing. Along with a hr for no fantasy bombing we should get rid of all the other fantasy stuff. hehe

M60A3TTS -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/6/2017 3:39:24 AM)
It was one thing for crews of He-111s in 1940 to cross the English Channel at night and based on known landmarks, be able to make their way to London and drop bombs on some part of the city. It's another to try and fly from west of Moscow to the city of Gorky with little appreciable means of navigating their way there, fly over a city under blackout conditions, and drop bombs anywhere near an area that you think contains a factory. We'll ignore minor details like inclement weather over the target area at times making bombing all but useless, and the lack of in-game barrage balloons that would take the wing off your attacking bomber if you flew low enough. Those are the kinds of things that aren't appropriate for a game of this type anyways, but the simplified air rules make it possible to do the impossible. The whole day-night bombing option seems to only be appropriate for those aircraft designed to be used at night, ie. U2VS. Even bombing airbases at night is a questionable activity. A relatively small target such as an airfield operating under blackout conditions would be difficult to find and attack neither effectively nor consistently. We're not talking about bombing Heathrow after all.

charlie0311 -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/6/2017 5:33:17 AM)
They all know.. and the rail fantasy, they can all find and read the posts (relevant) right in the forums. other stuff as well. But, you see, the fun is what's most important, if the facts can fit the fun, then ok, if not, make up new facts, plenty of "history" just for this purpose. It's pretty fun to plenty of guys to hunt and hunt and find things that get you an edge in game play. Just clicking it in and watching it happen is pretty fun. Some like to post these exploits in aar's and bathe in the praise of the fan base. Another kind of fun, the human kind, we like the attention. Then some guys who are more interested in some kind sportsmanship if such creatures even exist anymore maybe see this and choose to stay away.

Telemecus -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/6/2017 1:21:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS I would make a suggestion of adding a house rule in your games. Specifically, both sides should be prohibited from conducting what amounts to precision bombing of industrial targets within cities by night. I have some sympathy with this as it does seem strange you can fly across the Soviet Union to hit one precise kind of factory. My own thoughts were more that you could not bomb "named" factories trying to get at choke points. However I do think bombing general industry should be OK. However I do feel that such a house rule or change by the developers needs to be accompanied by restricting some of the Soviet air forces to the rear areas for their industrial defence. Historically Soviet air forces did not just bunch up together close to the front. They had many aircraft because they were a big country with a lot to defend. There was never a time when virtually the whole Soviet Union was left without air cover and defenceless. Nor a time when all the air forces could just concentrate on the front lines. Clearly it is not an exploit but an intended facet of the game. To be fair to the developers the Soviet factories were not comparable to the ones in the west or in the Reich. They were vast complexes integrating the whole supply chain. Eddie Chapman, the double agent for the British, could credibly fake a sabotage attack on a British aircraft factory because it was so small. It had hundreds of suppliers scattered over Britain which in turn had their own suppliers. If they were all co-located this would be the size of a town or small city in itself. So a Soviet factory was a more credible target even if you were only likely to hit the upstream supply line rather than the final assembly. So it was possible to find out where they were and that daylight bombing of these is not too incredible. Just maybe exaggerated and not what the Eastern front happened to be about (it was in the Barbarossa directive for the end of the campaign though). However so far in all AARs and guides the point has always been made that strategic bombing is a waste of Axis air force resources. One thing I hoped to show is that it is not. Does this mean I have succeeded? I believe it is worthwhile for "named" factories although is more debatable for general industry. There are two critical weaknesses. One is that 1% damage on an expanding factory which has a long way to go in its expansion creates disproportionate losses. The other is that while damage is cumulative, repair is only sequential. So the first 1% damage matters very little. But an extra 1% damage on top of a lot of existing damage is catastrophic if it lasts for so many turns. So perhaps a first lesson for all games is do not leave the Soviet Union without fighter cover. We had so many turns of uncontested, unopposed, unescorted, free daylight bombing that large damage levels were built up. Now there are significant probabilities that factories will shut down. And so it does make sense to fly opposed bombing missions even if they only got a few percentage points of damage because they will last for so long. Bottom line for Soviet players - on turn 1 get some fighter cover for your factories. Do not let the genie out of the bottle. Do not react when it is too late. The norm should be little strategic bombing as it is ineffective, but significant air forces committed across the rear as a deterrent to make sure it is ineffective.

charlie0311 -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/6/2017 3:00:12 PM)
As usual very well said ala Tele.. May I say, humbly, that is up to the developers to state their intentions. I did leave something out of my last rant. That would be when the "edge" is found the "creators" fall in love with it and can't give it up. Re hitting targets from high altitude, hmm, nope, as in never. Drop 1000's, same target, a few get close, kinda, maybe some finally hit, maybe. Operational guided (ballistic) ordinance did not appear for decades.

Telemecus -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/7/2017 12:58:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charlie0311 Operational guided (ballistic) ordinance did not appear for decades. 1943 apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_X The above is a radio controlled example but I remember reading about wire controlled anti-ship rockets during the war in the Mediterranean as well. For the moment let us pass on the Japanese guided ordinance.

charlie0311 -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/7/2017 1:58:31 PM)
The word "operational" in the sense of deployed to combat units and ready to be used in military operations is what I was referring to. You guys were all little boys once, later pre-teens, teenagers etc. I suppose most lived with a family and had a father. Your father's were at work during the week and you were at school. See above my remarks about my childhood. My father's social life involved having events etc, card parties, cook outs, lots of drinking. As a USAF officer, former bomber pilot, and finally SAC staff officer (G-5) and wing commander, who do think such a person would have a friends and companions and what would they likely be talking of. I would be the "gofer". I was bred and groomed to be an AF officer free ride to the academy. Well this was the time of the cold war, these guys all former bomber pilots of ww2 and now still in the same business. What was always the subject of conversation? You are telling me something from wiki. If you weren't convinced by my personal experiences above it may not be possible. I don't want to type everything up. But ok, the wing command was b47, being used as recon "operationally". I have tried and tried to find some of the super cool photos that I remember. Nada, lots of propaganda and fairy tails. One such story even had a quote from Lemay, it was amusing and I was smiling, I even thought this may have happened until the next day. When the real life memory and events began to override the propaganda recently planted. I was looking for one at low level, maybe only 1000 ft, right over the Kremlin, you see the river below and here come the Migs. Up and away goes the 47. Enormous amounts of stuff. One bomb damage photo starts to look like all the rest. Wiki is not God and neither am I. This thread and subject is only nominally about high altitude accuracy, the real topic is human behavior. I want you guys to have your fun. Yes, yes, triple yes. When I see quite a lot of stuff here, it sets off alarms bells, too often I fail to keep my mouth shut. I'm here for amusement as well, a hobby you know.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/7/2017 3:32:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS I would make a suggestion of adding a house rule in your games. Specifically, both sides should be prohibited from conducting what amounts to precision bombing of industrial targets within cities by night. I have some sympathy with this as it does seem strange you can fly across the Soviet Union to hit one precise kind of factory. My own thoughts were more that you could not bomb "named" factories trying to get at choke points. However I do think bombing general industry should be OK. However I do feel that such a house rule or change by the developers needs to be accompanied by restricting some of the Soviet air forces to the rear areas for their industrial defence. Historically Soviet air forces did not just bunch up together close to the front. They had many aircraft because they were a big country with a lot to defend. There was never a time when virtually the whole Soviet Union was left without air cover and defenceless. Nor a time when all the air forces could just concentrate on the front lines. Clearly it is not an exploit but an intended facet of the game. To be fair to the developers the Soviet factories were not comparable to the ones in the west or in the Reich. They were vast complexes integrating the whole supply chain. Eddie Chapman, the double agent for the British, could credibly fake a sabotage attack on a British aircraft factory because it was so small. It had hundreds of suppliers scattered over Britain which in turn had their own suppliers. If they were all co-located this would be the size of a town or small city in itself. So a Soviet factory was a more credible target even if you were only likely to hit the upstream supply line rather than the final assembly. So it was possible to find out where they were and that daylight bombing of these is not too incredible. Just maybe exaggerated and not what the Eastern front happened to be about (it was in the Barbarossa directive for the end of the campaign though). However so far in all AARs and guides the point has always been made that strategic bombing is a waste of Axis air force resources. One thing I hoped to show is that it is not. Does this mean I have succeeded? I believe it is worthwhile for "named" factories although is more debatable for general industry. There are two critical weaknesses. One is that 1% damage on an expanding factory which has a long way to go in its expansion creates disproportionate losses. The other is that while damage is cumulative, repair is only sequential. So the first 1% damage matters very little. But an extra 1% damage on top of a lot of existing damage is catastrophic if it lasts for so many turns. So perhaps a first lesson for all games is do not leave the Soviet Union without fighter cover. We had so many turns of uncontested, unopposed, unescorted, free daylight bombing that large damage levels were built up. Now there are significant probabilities that factories will shut down. And so it does make sense to fly opposed bombing missions even if they only got a few percentage points of damage because they will last for so long. Bottom line for Soviet players - on turn 1 get some fighter cover for your factories. Do not let the genie out of the bottle. Do not react when it is too late. The norm should be little strategic bombing as it is ineffective, but significant air forces committed across the rear as a deterrent to make sure it is ineffective. The old AAR's were correct. Night bombing had very little damage to factories or any at all back in 2010 & 2011 & 2012. I used to try out bombing back then and you were lucky if you received 1% (most of the time 0%) damage while loosing a great many aircraft. Now after the Air updates in the last year and half to two years this has come to the forefront and made such a strategy viable. So those old AAR's were correct that bombing was a waste back then. Now I do agree with M60 that the damage caused by night bombing is way too high. I also agree with you Telemecus that planes should be allocated to the defense of these factories or suffer the consequences. The end takeaway that I have is that the Night Operations the fatality rate is way too high in the last couple of years patches. We really need to find viable sources to validate night bombing effectiveness then model this correctly in WITE1.0. Which at the moment I believe the system is way too generous at this moment.

Telemecus -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/7/2017 3:57:11 PM)
Before we get carried away we should remember in this game we are talking about day bombing. My experience of night bombing is it is not very effective and at best slows the repair rate. So only really useful after you have a large damage built up by day bombing (which you should not allow to happen in the first place), or on vulnerable expanding factories. For us the key point was getting all bombing of even these distant targets to be from bases on rail lines so there is absolutely no question of creating supply or vehicle problems. That is the key part which makes strategic bombing effective. From old AARs it seemed to me most thought it ineffective because they were using bases a long way from supply heads. The cost-benefit ratio was just too high.

M60A3TTS -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/7/2017 4:51:38 PM)
I really feel obligated to bring this up, given the nature of the discussion over this Axis air strategy that is being highlighted. This is intended to explain in large part why it has been successful, and is not intended to dump on someone who is not likely dropping by this forum again, at least it doesn't seem so. From the STAVKA multiplayer thread, Post #13. From Panzerjager Hortlund: As Commander Im responsible for all airforce- things. I will do all airforce things before I send the turn to the front-commanders. But I will of cource use the airforce to support you guys as best I can. We will not send the airforce to the national reserve. I understand the logic behind the reasoning from a game-perspective, but I refuse to play like that. The Motherland is under attack and is fighting for its life. The idea to send all airunits to reserve airfields behind the Urals in such a situation is just gamey and completely unrealistic. It is for individual players to decide what is gamey and what is not, what is realistic and what is not. Having said that, newer players need to understand this: If you play this game like the Soviets played historically, against a similarly experienced player, you will lose, and often lose badly. It has been tried, and not by someone who has played a couple games. Read this AAR from a couple years ago from a player who was experienced, quite good, and tried the "historical" route. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3539999&mpage=1&key= This game over the years has seen the Axis side buffed in order to create an element of play balance. As the Soviet, you can't afford the luxury of trying to play certain aspects of the game as it was historically done without paying a penalty. Back to this game, I do no not see any evidence that any Soviet air unit ever went back to the reserves in order to recover morale. We aren't even talking about wholesale removal, nothing ever went back. By turn 9, the morale of the VVS was well below the point where it could be effective. [image]https://i.imgur.com/Sf4RuH6.jpg[/image] I did try to do some work after taking over the air war on T10 to recover from the situation, but by this time most of the reserves of fighter bombers had been used up and at this time there simply aren't enough new aircraft coming on line. So what happens next is a downward spiral that cannot be recovered from without a certain amount of time. The point is, had a more experienced player been managing the air war from Turn 1, this Axis strategy would not have been the success it appears. The only new thing that has been added to this equation, and Dinglir should get due credit for this, was experimenting with the whole day-night bombing thing. Unfortunately, as I have pointed out, it contains elements that are also totally unrealistic. Night bombing on the eastern front was primarily a U-2VS thing. If someone wants to come forward with examples of large scale night bombing, and we're talking night not flying in at first daylight, to take out an airfield or industrial area, please do. Also, please don't, as Charlie points out, assume what the developers came up with was intended. Very creative people have always looking for that opportunity to stretch the envelope, it doesn't change the fact that nighttime industrial bombing is largely impractical. The closest the Luftwaffe got to was bombing the commercial docks in England. The whole Urals bomber concept never was more than that. The whole Barbarossa strategy was laid out at the very beginning in the Fuhrerdirective 21: The German Wehrmacht must be prepared to crush Soviet Russia in a quick campaign even before the conclusion of the war against England. Finally, as to the question is this strategy effective at least in reigning in the VVS. My answer is you really can't say when the first 17 turns aren't even done. All four IL-2 factories were evacuated to the Urals. That will provide 216 aircraft per turn in time, and I have yet to see a game where I've even come remotely close to being short of them. As to fighter bombers, I have thousands of lend lease aircraft gathering dust every game I play. If this game continues for time, they will simply be employed to make up for any shortfalls in domestic production. So my prediction for the long term would be for the fighter bombers, marginal impact, for tactical bombers negligible impact. Level bombers aren't employed in significant numbers by summer 1942, so marginal impact. Transports and recon, tbd.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/7/2017 5:10:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS I really feel obligated to bring this up, given the nature of the discussion over this Axis air strategy that is being highlighted. This is intended to explain in large part why it has been successful, and is not intended to dump on someone who is not likely dropping by this forum again, at least it doesn't seem so. From the STAVKA multiplayer thread, Post #13. From Panzerjager Hortlund: As Commander Im responsible for all airforce- things. I will do all airforce things before I send the turn to the front-commanders. But I will of cource use the airforce to support you guys as best I can. We will not send the airforce to the national reserve. I understand the logic behind the reasoning from a game-perspective, but I refuse to play like that. The Motherland is under attack and is fighting for its life. The idea to send all airunits to reserve airfields behind the Urals in such a situation is just gamey and completely unrealistic. It is for individual players to decide what is gamey and what is not, what is realistic and what is not. Having said that, newer players need to understand this: If you play this game like the Soviets played historically, against a similarly experienced player, you will lose, and often lose badly. It has been tried, and not by someone who has played a couple games. Read this AAR from a couple years ago from a player who was experienced, quite good, and tried the "historical" route. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3539999&mpage=1&key= This game over the years has seen the Axis side buffed in order to create an element of play balance. As the Soviet, you can't afford the luxury of trying to play certain aspects of the game as it was historically done without paying a penalty. Back to this game, I do no not see any evidence that any Soviet air unit ever went back to the reserves in order to recover morale. We aren't even talking about wholesale removal, nothing ever went back. By turn 9, the morale of the VVS was well below the point where it could be effective. [image]https://i.imgur.com/Sf4RuH6.jpg[/image] I did try to do some work after taking over the air war on T10 to recover from the situation, but by this time most of the reserves of fighter bombers had been used up and at this time there simply aren't enough new aircraft coming on line. So what happens next is a downward spiral that cannot be recovered from without a certain amount of time. The point is, had a more experienced player been managing the air war from Turn 1, this Axis strategy would not have been the success it appears. The only new thing that has been added to this equation, and Dinglir should get due credit for this, was experimenting with the whole day-night bombing thing. Unfortunately, as I have pointed out, it contains elements that are also totally unrealistic. Night bombing on the eastern front was primarily a U-2VS thing. If someone wants to come forward with examples of large scale night bombing, and we're talking night not flying in at first daylight, to take out an airfield or industrial area, please do. Also, please don't, as Charlie points out, assume what the developers came up with was intended. Very creative people have always looking for that opportunity to stretch the envelope, it doesn't change the fact that nighttime industrial bombing is largely impractical. The closest the Luftwaffe got to was bombing the commercial docks in England. The whole Urals bomber concept never was more than that. The whole Barbarossa strategy was laid out at the very beginning in the Fuhrerdirective 21: The German Wehrmacht must be prepared to crush Soviet Russia in a quick campaign even before the conclusion of the war against England. Finally, as to the question is this strategy effective at least in reigning in the VVS. My answer is you really can't say when the first 17 turns aren't even done. All four IL-2 factories were evacuated to the Urals. That will provide 216 aircraft per turn in time, and I have yet to see a game where I've even come remotely close to being short of them. As to fighter bombers, I have thousands of lend lease aircraft gathering dust every game I play. If this game continues for time, they will simply be employed to make up for any shortfalls in domestic production. So my prediction for the long term would be for the fighter bombers, marginal impact, for tactical bombers negligible impact. Level bombers aren't employed in significant numbers by summer 1942, so marginal impact. Transports and recon, tbd. I see you have an 82 experienced I-16 Type 24, you need to be NERFED!!! That kind of experience is not allowed on the Soviet side. All kidding aside a very nice write up :)

Sardaukar -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/10/2017 6:13:31 PM)
Hi guys, Just wanted to pass by to tell I am OK. Just extremely busy right now in office and house-hunting. Cheers!

M60A3TTS -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/12/2017 10:06:27 AM)
Turn 16 in dropbox

Stelteck -> RE: 8 player multiplayer - THREAD FOR BOTH SIDES (11/12/2017 2:37:05 PM)
I was not expecting my panzer division alone to hold the moscow encerclement. Although you could have increased your chance by transfering all divisions to the same "Jukov" command for both attacks, it still confirm my opinion that the lack of +1 attack bonus in 1941 hurt a lot.

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