RE: Kaga enters service (Full Version)

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Chickenboy -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/6/2017 5:00:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
They did not help an ally [:'(]


Stalin's behind the back dealings with Hitler vis a vis the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and its bloody literal implementation by the Soviets obviate the need for me to feel badly about how things turned out for them. To expect a harried and piecemeal offensive by Allies that you've misled, just to bail you out of an inconvenient jam that you bloody well got yourself into is without merit. Did Stalin not think that secret deal was germane to the 'alliance'? He's fortunate that the Western Allies didn't completely divorce themselves from the Soviet fate after such double-dealing.




Leandros -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/6/2017 6:43:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Stalin's behind the back dealings with Hitler vis a vis the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and its bloody literal implementation by the Soviets obviate the need for me to feel badly about how things turned out for them. To expect a harried and piecemeal offensive by Allies that you've misled, just to bail you out of an inconvenient jam that you bloody well got yourself into is without merit. Did Stalin not think that secret deal was germane to the 'alliance'? He's fortunate that the Western Allies didn't completely divorce themselves from the Soviet fate after such double-dealing.

You should take it from the start, that of Stalin/Molotov's failed attempts, before the
Ribbentrop/Molotov deal came off, to get Britain and France to join the Soviets in an alliance
to stop Hitler's future plans. The Western powers preferred Hitler. What could Stalin do?

The increased buffer zones offered in that agreement, and those achieved through the
Finnish/Soviet Winter War, probably saved Leningrad and Moscow in 1941.

Fred




warspite1 -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/6/2017 7:19:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Stalin's behind the back dealings with Hitler vis a vis the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and its bloody literal implementation by the Soviets obviate the need for me to feel badly about how things turned out for them. To expect a harried and piecemeal offensive by Allies that you've misled, just to bail you out of an inconvenient jam that you bloody well got yourself into is without merit. Did Stalin not think that secret deal was germane to the 'alliance'? He's fortunate that the Western Allies didn't completely divorce themselves from the Soviet fate after such double-dealing.

You should take it from the start, that of Stalin/Molotov's failed attempts, before the
Ribbentrop/Molotov deal came off, to get Britain and France to join the Soviets in an alliance
to stop Hitler's future plans. The Western powers preferred Hitler. What could Stalin do?

The increased buffer zones offered in that agreement, and those achieved through the
Finnish/Soviet Winter War, probably saved Leningrad and Moscow in 1941.

Fred
warspite1

What could Stalin do? He could do what he did and look after no.1 - just as the British and French were looking after number 1. I definitely don't blame Stalin for that (I kind of admire his shrewdness) - although I have a less rosy view of Stalin's MO and I don't seek to excuse his actions given what that meant for Finns, Poles etc.

But I am not really sure where....

quote:

The increased buffer zones offered in that agreement, and those achieved through the Finnish/Soviet Winter War, probably saved Leningrad and Moscow in 1941.


...comes from though.

Sounds like something designed to justify Stalin's war of aggression on Finland (and of course the occupation of the Baltic States, Eastern Poland and Bessarabia). BUT if the Soviet Union hadn't invaded Finland, why do you think Finland is going to war with the USSR in 1941? Even after the Winter War in 1939/40 and subsequently Finland getting into bed with Germany, the Finns did not go beyond their original borders when attacking the USSR. So they certainly had no reason to actively seek Moscow's ire by declaring war on them having not been attacked. Thus how does that make Leningrad any more likely to fall - let alone Moscow? Leningrad did not fall of course, and without the N-S pact, I think it would be even less likely - and probably not even placed under siege.

The final version of the border of the Nazi-Soviet pact also played into Germany's hands with the salient around Bialystok ripe for encirclement. Without the pact this does not now happen. Sure the Germans start further east, but enough to make a difference before Moscow? I don't think this stands up to scrutiny given how far short the Wehrmacht came up. Without the alliance, Stalin is less desperate to believe that Germany moving 3 million men east is NOT a sign of impending invasion [8|] Finally, without the pact that is a lot of resources - inc oil - that German don't get access to.

By the same token as Finland, without the NS pact and the annexation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina, why does Romania necessarily join with Germany? Germany has to have that oil and if Romania cannot be persuaded to join the Axis then what? Does Hitler invade? The war is potentially taking a real down turn all of a sudden for Adolf without his N-S pact.

So yes, I understand why Uncle Joe entered into the pact, but No, I don't think the NS pact and all it meant can be justified by the - "the USSR would have lost otherwise" - argument.




Chickenboy -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/6/2017 8:28:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros
The Western powers preferred Hitler.


I think it's safe to say that the Western powers preferred neither. Their noncommittal actions were consistent with this.




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/6/2017 9:41:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
They did not help an ally [:'(]


Stalin's behind the back dealings with Hitler vis a vis the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and its bloody literal implementation by the Soviets obviate the need for me to feel badly about how things turned out for them.


They got to Berlin, remember?

You seem to think Stalin (or the Soviet people) owed something to France, the UK and the Poles. They owed nothing to them [:'(] And rightly so.




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/6/2017 9:57:18 PM)

quote:

Warspite

Sure the Germans start further east, but enough to make a difference before Moscow? I don't think this stands up to scrutiny given how far short the Wehrmacht came up.


I suggest you to read the operations of Army Group South in Ukraine, where they faced powerful Soviet units in their fortified regions, a thing which didn't happen in Army Group Center area, when the Red Army abandoned the strong fortified positions and occupied the new buffer zone.

A hint: Army Group South was basically spanked and counter-attacked [sm=00000622.gif]

So yes it made a difference, as per STAVKA plan.




warspite1 -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/6/2017 10:05:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

Warspite

Sure the Germans start further east, but enough to make a difference before Moscow? I don't think this stands up to scrutiny given how far short the Wehrmacht came up.


I suggest you to read the operations of Army Group South in Ukraine, where they faced powerful Soviet units in their fortified regions, a thing which didn't happen in Army Group Center area, when the Red Army abandoned the strong fortified positions and occupied the new buffer zone.

A hint: Army Group South was basically spanked and counter-attacked [sm=00000622.gif]

So yes it made a difference, as per STAVKA plan.
warspite1

Yes I've read quite a bit on the Eastern Front which is why I do not understand where Leandros's point begins to make sense - and thank-you for adding your confirmation of my thought process. Namely, with no N-S Pact, the Soviets don't move into Eastern Poland but are instead defending the original fortified border and not presenting a nice big 'please encircle me' bulge around Bialystok to the Germans. That is bad news for Army Group Centre....




MakeeLearn -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/6/2017 10:40:01 PM)


After entering service Lady Kaga wrote a song about 1939 - Hitler, Stalin and Chamberlain/Churchill

Poker Face




warspite1 -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/6/2017 10:45:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn



After entering service Lady Kaga wrote a song about 1939 - Hitler, Stalin and Churchill

Poker Face
warspite1

Shouldn't that be Chamberlain and not Churchill? [;)]




MakeeLearn -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/6/2017 11:01:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn



After entering service Lady Kaga wrote a song about 1939 - Hitler, Stalin and Churchill

Poker Face
warspite1

Shouldn't that be Chamberlain and not Churchill? [;)]





Same British band, they just changed their name..... and lead singer, who use to be the drummer.




Chickenboy -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 12:06:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
They did not help an ally [:'(]


Stalin's behind the back dealings with Hitler vis a vis the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and its bloody literal implementation by the Soviets obviate the need for me to feel badly about how things turned out for them.


They got to Berlin, remember?

You seem to think Stalin (or the Soviet people) owed something to France, the UK and the Poles. They owed nothing to them [:'(] And rightly so.

Goodness no. But you seem to be under the impression that the "Western Allies" owed something to a double-dealing Stalin.

Your earlier statement about the Soviet expectation for the Western Allies to start a second front and, having not received said second front in a timely fashion, feeling betrayed. Clearly there was an expectation there-justified / rational or not.




adarbrauner -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 3:00:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
They did not help an ally [:'(]


Stalin's behind the back dealings with Hitler vis a vis the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and its bloody literal implementation by the Soviets obviate the need for me to feel badly about how things turned out for them.


They got to Berlin, remember?

You seem to think Stalin (or the Soviet people) owed something to France, the UK and the Poles. They owed nothing to them [:'(] And rightly so.

Goodness no. But you seem to be under the impression that the "Western Allies" owed something to a double-dealing Stalin.

Your earlier statement about the Soviet expectation for the Western Allies to start a second front and, having not received said second front in a timely fashion, feeling betrayed. Clearly there was an expectation there-justified / rational or not.


This ain't poltics ?!?




MakeeLearn -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 3:41:12 AM)

A fairytale?

Once upon a time.....

[image]local://upfiles/55056/478FD6CC670A4C42AEC84119A40336D7.jpg[/image]




MakeeLearn -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 3:51:48 AM)

quote:

adarbrauner

This ain't poltics ?!?



A love story?

[image]local://upfiles/55056/30696E5127ED41D88107AA1AC88DBF4D.jpg[/image]




MakeeLearn -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 4:10:15 AM)

The Kaga has a tweetybird ....

[image]local://upfiles/55056/2B3E008686244DB48B976C4B3496DEB7.jpg[/image]




warspite1 -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 5:26:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
They did not help an ally [:'(]


Stalin's behind the back dealings with Hitler vis a vis the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and its bloody literal implementation by the Soviets obviate the need for me to feel badly about how things turned out for them.


They got to Berlin, remember?

You seem to think Stalin (or the Soviet people) owed something to France, the UK and the Poles. They owed nothing to them [:'(] And rightly so.

Goodness no. But you seem to be under the impression that the "Western Allies" owed something to a double-dealing Stalin.

Your earlier statement about the Soviet expectation for the Western Allies to start a second front and, having not received said second front in a timely fashion, feeling betrayed. Clearly there was an expectation there-justified / rational or not.


This ain't poltics ?!?
warspite1

No we are discussing history.....




warspite1 -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 5:27:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

The Kaga has a tweetybird ....

[image]local://upfiles/55056/2B3E008686244DB48B976C4B3496DEB7.jpg[/image]
warspite1

Stop de-railing this thread with your off-topic nonsense.



[:D]

(nice pic btw)




MakeeLearn -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 12:37:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

The Kaga has a tweetybird ....


warspite1

Stop de-railing this thread with your off-topic nonsense.



[:D]

(nice pic btw)



I cant help it, Iam a boat rocking rebel.


Looks like they took the tail off a C141 and the nose off a C130. Called "ShinMaywa US-2". US-2???


A short takeoff and landing (STOL), Pressurised hull, and Rolls-Royce AE 2100 engines.


Able to meet civilian and military needs.




Chickenboy -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 12:42:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn
The Kaga has a tweetybird ....


Great picture!




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 12:44:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Your earlier statement about the Soviet expectation for the Western Allies to start a second front and, having not received said second front in a timely fashion, feeling betrayed. Clearly there was an expectation there-justified / rational or not.


That has to be a *ghost* comment or a mere hallucination as I did not mention the "open the second front now!". We are dealing with 1939 here, 1941 at most.




Lokasenna -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 12:56:21 PM)

That's a pretty plane.




btd64 -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 12:59:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

The Kaga has a tweetybird ....

[image]local://upfiles/55056/2B3E008686244DB48B976C4B3496DEB7.jpg[/image]



That is a pretty plane....GP




warspite1 -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 2:39:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn



After entering service Lady Kaga wrote a song about 1939 - Hitler, Stalin and Churchill

Poker Face
warspite1

Shouldn't that be Chamberlain and not Churchill? [;)]





Same British band, they just changed their name..... and lead singer, who use to be the drummer.

warspite1

What, you mean Genesis?




MakeeLearn -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 2:54:09 PM)

quote:

warspite1

What, you mean Genesis?



Sure....WENCH!!! Guinness' for everyone!

[image]local://upfiles/55056/80D3EF644C504FB596FD49799C27AE2F.jpg[/image]




warspite1 -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 2:58:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

warspite1

What, you mean Genesis?



Sure....WENCH!!! Guinness' for everyone!

[image]local://upfiles/55056/80D3EF644C504FB596FD49799C27AE2F.jpg[/image]
warspite1

A very pleasing picture from a health and safety perspective. It's good to see that the Government's 1941 Health initiative bearing fruit as had that picture been taken 10 years earlier I have little doubt that the child would have been smoking a roll up. Pipes are so much healthier.

Sensible policies for a happier Britain, what?




MakeeLearn -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 3:00:19 PM)

Ive been told that child is Winston Churchill, such bad influence can only have 1 outcome...

[image]local://upfiles/55056/66E641F20A264828ACAEEF9E53F5DC40.jpg[/image]




Zorch -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 3:08:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn



After entering service Lady Kaga wrote a song about 1939 - Hitler, Stalin and Churchill

Poker Face
warspite1

Shouldn't that be Chamberlain and not Churchill? [;)]





Same British band, they just changed their name..... and lead singer, who use to be the drummer.

warspite1

What, you mean Genesis?


Franz Ferdinand?




warspite1 -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 3:13:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn



After entering service Lady Kaga wrote a song about 1939 - Hitler, Stalin and Churchill

Poker Face
warspite1

Shouldn't that be Chamberlain and not Churchill? [;)]





Same British band, they just changed their name..... and lead singer, who use to be the drummer.

warspite1

What, you mean Genesis?


Franz Ferdinand?
warspite1

No, Phil Collins



[:)]




MakeeLearn -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 3:24:31 PM)

quote:

Franz Ferdinand?


Churchy was in one of the bands that closed on the Hilter tour...


June 42? Must be drunk roadies

[image]local://upfiles/55056/E5A7E865253A48D8908304CFFBDDDEC9.jpg[/image]




Zorch -> RE: Kaga enters service (4/7/2017 4:24:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

Franz Ferdinand?


Churchy was in one of the bands that closed on the Hilter tour...


June 42? Must be drunk roadies

[image]local://upfiles/55056/E5A7E865253A48D8908304CFFBDDDEC9.jpg[/image]

Did you say 'Hilter'?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsQM9HKtvA4

[image]local://upfiles/34241/59DFEAD35DC8494DA738778B53F23F8C.jpg[/image]




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