RE: German navy, including subs, is worthless (Full Version)

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MemoryLeak -> RE: German navy, including subs, is worthless (3/31/2017 4:23:56 PM)

I think people, for the most part, are missing the main point of my posts.

One person said that the naval warfare aspect is abstracted to a high degree. Well, that is what I am
trying to address. I would like to make it more realistic by implementing some decisions
that the player has to make. Do you want to dash all over the Atlantic. If yes, then steaming at
full speed has consequences, or would in my world.

So you, as commander, has to keep on top of it and rotate ships into port more often. As it is now they
stay at sea for months or years. I'm just trying to add some realism to the naval portion of the game.

I don't understand what the resistance is to this. Like I said, the remainder of the game is a simple
slug-fest with the ground troops. After about a 100 turns of that it would be nice to have some
meaningful decisions to make, instead of simply attacking with a dozen units and moving forward a hex. And
doing this the same way turn after turn , game after game. Add another dimension to it.



n0kn0k -> RE: German navy, including subs, is worthless (3/31/2017 5:22:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MemoryLeak

I think people, for the most part, are missing the main point of my posts.

One person said that the naval warfare aspect is abstracted to a high degree. Well, that is what I am
trying to address. I would like to make it more realistic by implementing some decisions
that the player has to make. Do you want to dash all over the Atlantic. If yes, then steaming at
full speed has consequences, or would in my world.

So you, as commander, has to keep on top of it and rotate ships into port more often. As it is now they
stay at sea for months or years. I'm just trying to add some realism to the naval portion of the game.

I don't understand what the resistance is to this. Like I said, the remainder of the game is a simple
slug-fest with the ground troops. After about a 100 turns of that it would be nice to have some
meaningful decisions to make, instead of simply attacking with a dozen units and moving forward a hex. And
doing this the same way turn after turn , game after game. Add another dimension to it.


Have to agree with you on this one. It could use a bit more tweaking. At the later stage it turns into an economics game more then tactical game due to the sheer number of ships. Perhaps lowering the numbers and range would help? Gotta keep the scale and turn duration in mind though. And the ability to counter transports.



MemoryLeak -> RE: German navy, including subs, is worthless (3/31/2017 6:58:49 PM)

Well, my idea is to keep the range of the ships the same as the game has them now. For discussion, lets say the range is 12 hexes.
And that represents steaming at flank speed in order to get that far in one turn.

That takes a toll on men and machines which is currently not modeled in the game. So if you move the entire 12 hexes in one turn you take a big hit for
supply, morale and readiness. But if you only go 6 hexes in a turn you don't suffer any penalty because you
were going at Half speed not flank speed.

And you could say if you go 8 hexes that is full speed and you suffer 75% of the penalty not 100% if you went 12 hexes.

This covers two points. It prevents ships from dashing across the Atlantic in one turn and surrounding each contact like
a pack of wild dogs. You have to use your resources judiciously.

Second point it covers is if you do dash around you have to rotate the ships back to port to refuel and rest up, like real life.
They can't remain at sea for years, like you can now. That's ridiculous.

It adds a level of immersion to the Battle of the Atlantic you have to plan your strategy and regulate your ships and subs.




FF_1079 -> RE: German navy, including subs, is worthless (3/31/2017 9:51:50 PM)

I posted somewhere else about this, but I can't find it - so here goes again.

The old DOS game Clash of Steel is the spiritual predecessor of this game - it had the same MPP based structure, you bought units ahead of time, and you had the same types of units as well. The diplomatic game and lend lease levels were similar as well. The Naval game was COMPLETELY different, instead of hexes everywhere, there were Naval Zones that you could assign ships too (aircraft as well, both strike and search). The more ships in a zone, the greater chance of interaction between them. If someone tried an invasion, they had to fight any enemy ships in the box and be wary of ships in neighboring zones moving to intercept. While abstract, it allowed for strategy, and truthfully, moving individual ships around a massive map and magically finding each other is kinda gamey anyway.



IrishGuards -> RE: German navy, including subs, is worthless (3/31/2017 11:33:20 PM)

remember timing is key ...
IG
[X(]



crispy131313 -> RE: German navy, including subs, is worthless (4/1/2017 12:30:48 AM)

All the suggestions listed are below. There are a lot, hopefully we can sort it through and see if there are any viable solutions to the naval game?

1. Treat Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe like Majors with allotted MPP (Memory Leak)
2. One Week Turns and slower naval movement (Memory Leak)
3. Decrease supply/morale/readiness proportionate to naval hexes moved in a single turn (Memory Leak)
4. Decrease naval units supply each turn (Memory Leak)
5. Give subs +1 spotting (Bullet912)
6. Increase reinforcement cost of surface fleet from 5% to 10% (crispy131313)
7. Subs hide for turn after diving (Petrosian)
8. Randomize Starting Position of Subs (Irish Guards)
9. French Med Units should be territorial (Irish Guards)
10. If French Fleet is near Italy, then Italy can decided whether to DOW(Irish Guards)
11. Italy Begins with chit invested in Naval warfare (gingerbread)
12. Reduce French Navy power (Vonik)
13. Prevent Italian DOW before Paris is captured (Vonik)
14. Change hard coding (TheBattlefield)
15. Freeze French Colonial forces until Axis are 3 hexes from Paris (Mantis)
16. More diplomatic reactions to unhistorical actions (Mantis)
17. Germany send emergency aid to Italy if DOW'd by Allies (Mantis)
18. Add Uboats in Med (Battlevonwar)
19. Add Minefields to restricted waters (Leadweight)



Leadwieght -> RE: German navy, including subs, is worthless (4/1/2017 11:40:30 AM)

Thanks, Crispy, for pulling this list together. I would support 4, 16, 17, and 19



Capitaine -> RE: German navy, including subs, is worthless (4/1/2017 3:35:31 PM)

I think one thing you could do on the naval problem is to keep the movement allowances the same but only allow a naval unit to attack an enemy unit in the first x hexes of its move. So if you have to make a very long move to engage an enemy unit, you won't be able to attack it.

If the "all or nothing" approach above isn't desired, then just decrease the unit's attack factor by the % of its movement factor used prior to its attack. Something like that.



vonRocko -> RE: German navy, including subs, is worthless (4/1/2017 4:09:04 PM)

If I may add:

#20-leave it as it is.



TheBattlefield -> RE: German navy, including subs, is worthless (4/2/2017 4:19:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

If I may add:

#20-leave it as it is.

A game that is not (carefully) further developed will soon be forgotten... [sm=love0028.gif]



wie201 -> RE: German navy, including subs, is worthless (4/2/2017 4:34:47 PM)

I too agree with Vonik. He suggests a very simple fix, and I think that it would be effective.



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