RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (Full Version)

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jwolf -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (4/25/2017 2:04:44 PM)
quote: I would bet really-o truly-o money that this game never sees 1945. Or 1944. Even money that 1943 never gets visited either. You're out of date already. [;)] From the AAR thread I believe the game was called off before it even got to 1942.

Lowpe -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (4/25/2017 3:05:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jwolf quote: I would bet really-o truly-o money that this game never sees 1945. Or 1944. Even money that 1943 never gets visited either. You're out of date already. [;)] From the AAR thread I believe the game was called off before it even got to 1942. A one turn Japanese victory![&o] In wrestling there is the 10 second club, where you pin your opponent in less than 10 seconds.[;)]

Sundowners -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (4/25/2017 3:17:09 PM)
I've been playing WitpAE since 2009 and have played numerous smaller PBEMS and AI campaigns under a different user name (cward31548) and had to start a new account recently due to a major bomb when trying to get a "unified" Slitherine logon to work correctly. Anyway, yesterday tomamars and I started Scenario 001 with Historic First Turn and Pearl Harbor Surprise on (My Choice). I don't mind my new opponent seeing this, so these are the results: AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 07, 41 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Midget Sub attack inside harbor of Pearl Harbor!!! Japanese Ships SSX Ha-24 Allied Ships BB West Virginia, Torpedo hits 1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107 Weather in hex: Clear sky Raid detected at 92 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 30 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 68 B5N2 Kate x 144 D3A1 Val x 126 Allied aircraft no flights Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 11 damaged A6M2 Zero: 12 destroyed by flak B5N2 Kate: 11 damaged B5N2 Kate: 2 destroyed by flak D3A1 Val: 13 damaged D3A1 Val: 2 destroyed by flak Allied aircraft losses B-17D Fortress: 49 damaged B-17D Fortress: 2 destroyed on ground P-40B Warhawk: 61 damaged P-40B Warhawk: 11 destroyed on ground A-20A Havoc: 15 damaged A-20A Havoc: 4 destroyed on ground P-36A Mohawk: 31 damaged P-36A Mohawk: 5 destroyed on ground PBY-5 Catalina: 129 damaged PBY-5 Catalina: 19 destroyed on ground B-17E Fortress: 15 damaged B-17E Fortress: 2 destroyed on ground B-18A Bolo: 71 damaged B-18A Bolo: 5 destroyed on ground F4F-3 Wildcat: 7 damaged F4F-3 Wildcat: 3 destroyed on ground SBD-1 Dauntless: 31 damaged SBD-1 Dauntless: 8 destroyed on ground O-47A: 6 damaged O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground R3D-2: 1 damaged R3D-2: 1 destroyed on ground C-33: 2 damaged C-33: 1 destroyed on ground SNJ-3 Texan: 1 destroyed on ground OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 1 destroyed Allied Ships AV Wright BB Arizona, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage BB Maryland, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage CL St. Louis, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire CL Phoenix, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage BB California, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage BB Nevada, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage DMS Wasmuth, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage DMS Perry, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk DD Conyngham, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage DD MacDonough, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk AV Curtiss, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage AV Tangier, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage DD Monaghan, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk CL Detroit, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk xAKL Hirondelle DD Reid, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires DM Pruitt, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage DD Ralph Talbot, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk CM Oglala, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire CL Helena, Bomb hits 1, on fire DD Patterson, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk SS Narwhal, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage CL Honolulu, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage CL Raleigh, Torpedo hits 1 DD Jarvis, Torpedo hits 1, on fire DD Shaw, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk DD Mugford, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage AD Rigel, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage DD Dale, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk AD Dobbin, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires DM Gamble, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires DM Sicard, Bomb hits 1, on fire SS Tautog, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage DMS Zane, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk Allied ground losses: 16 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Repair Shipyard hits 2 Airbase hits 47 Airbase supply hits 3 Runway hits 106 Aircraft Attacking: 10 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb 10 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb 1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 25 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo 4 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 18 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo 4 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet 8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 18 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo 15 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb 5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000' Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 11 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb 4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000' Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb ---------------------------------------------------- (Combined attack results for 2 separate air attacks on Force Z) BC Repulse, Torpedo hits 4, on fire heavy damage BB Prince of Wales, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage ---------------------------------------------------- The results seem very good to me with 41 different vessels hit, but not necessarily impossible. Now that I have kibitzed away my damage reports, you can all see my very weakened position. Hoping for a good match.

tomamars -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (4/25/2017 4:46:41 PM)
You'll probably kick my butt eventually but it's nice to see game start good for Japan, as it historically did, btw. This is my third opening on those settings and I can justify that those are the results Japan gets on those settings, give or take. You loose a lot more planes and pilots but sunk / damage a lot more ships in PH / Si. Certainly more historical than Manila strike.

Chickenboy -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (4/25/2017 5:14:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jwolf quote: I would bet really-o truly-o money that this game never sees 1945. Or 1944. Even money that 1943 never gets visited either. You're out of date already. [;)] From the AAR thread I believe the game was called off before it even got to 1942. So does this mean that you won't take my bet? [:D]

Sundowners -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (4/25/2017 5:43:25 PM)
Agreed, the PBEM Historical First turn and Pearl Surprise on show PH getting clobbered pretty consistently with those settings. Now for the challenge to try and get to summer of '43. Looking forward to a sound thrashing upon the IJN :)

Revthought -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (4/25/2017 5:47:27 PM)
Having played a number of opponents and the AI, I always regarded the historical first turn as benefiting both sides for different reasons. The Japanese player gets far more historical Pearl Harbor results--let's face it, replicating the real damage done at Pearl Harbor ~~almost never~~ never happens without the KB spending multiple days around Hawaii. This happens at the cost of a lot more pilots. That being said, I have always been of the opinion that if you want to start with an "historical" first turn, you should really just be playing the December 8th scenario, which granted is not available for every mod. But if you're playing the stock game, I personally would of said no to the "historical first turn" and instead gone with the December 8th start.

Lowpe -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (4/25/2017 8:54:22 PM)
The POW is alive on a Dec 8th start....

Revthought -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (4/25/2017 11:00:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe The POW is alive on a Dec 8th start.... I am usually playing the Allies, so I don't mind. [:D]

Aurorus -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (4/26/2017 12:58:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Quixote Aurorus is correct about the potential exploit. Instead of arguing back and forth about what should happen when starting a new game with the same Japanese seed turn, try actually doing it. I did, and the result of the same Japanese seed turn, when sent to two Allied opponents with completely different passwords, was two exactly identical turns. These weren't similar results or close results factoring in fog of war, they were identical. Each Allied player lost exactly the same ships, exactly the same number of aircraft, and suffered exactly the same amount of damage to each and every ship hit. The experiment is easily repeatable if you care to try. Note that this potential exploit only applies to Historical Dec 7th starts, and still may not mean his opponent was knowingly cheating. It's certainly possible his opponent simply re-used an already prepared first turn without knowing about the exploit (since none of the veteran players here seemed to know about it either), but Aurorus isn't crazy to have at least considered the possibility. Thank you. As I stated, I have no evidence that in this particular instance, the opponent cheated. I was suspicious, however, that both of his last two attacks on Pearl resulted in enormous loss. That is what prompted me to test when the RNG generates the results for the turn and whether the results would be identical without any "entropy" or other input data. The primary purpose of this entire thread was to call attention to a potential exploit in the game. Otherwise, I would not have bothered posting it in the forum, since it is, as Lowpe observes, an uncomfortable topic. The problem is not so much in the WiTP engine as in how computers generate random numbers. They cannot, in fact, generate "random" numbers. Most RNGs rely on input data from users to set the process by which random numbers are generated in motion.

SheperdN7 -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (4/27/2017 8:35:40 PM)
Its a fair and interesting argument on both sides, however I will say that I have (in my whole year and a half on this forum) that I have NEVER seen a case of 1st turn cheating, and certainly undoubtedly not when a historical first turn option was used. I have however seen some great Pearl Harbour attacks and this certainly ranks up there but I attribute it to other PH strikes. Luck and chance.

Alpha77 -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (5/3/2017 10:49:18 AM)
Started game with historical "ON" and it shows 6 BBs and 2 CLs + some DDs sunk at PH... so guess this historic option somehow sinks more (even if Iknow 2-3 of these BBs can be FOW of course)

Chickenboy -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (5/3/2017 1:31:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alpha77 Started game with historical "ON" and it shows 6 BBs and 2 CLs + some DDs sunk at PH... so guess this historic option somehow sinks more (even if Iknow 2-3 of these BBs can be FOW of course) Well, we all know that the computer cheats like a mother-******. Nothing new there. [;)]

Alpha77 -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (5/3/2017 2:04:10 PM)
So if they used this historic option in their game (agreed on I guess, or did the IJ player force it with gun to head on the allied?) where is the problem that the OP sees [&:][>:]

rustysi -> RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1 (5/5/2017 10:23:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alpha77 Started game with historical "ON" and it shows 6 BBs and 2 CLs + some DDs sunk at PH... so guess this historic option somehow sinks more (even if Iknow 2-3 of these BBs can be FOW of course) Results aren't usually that bad, probably FOW. If you're playing the AI just look, I usually do just to see the degree of FOW.

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