Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (Full Version)

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HAWK7 -> Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/22/2017 1:37:27 AM)

After several days of reading the manual, changelogs from patches, some tutorials on this forum and playing some small szenarios (more defending then attacking), I am sure I know (almost) all rules and logic behind the scenes.

Now I want to try the German 1941 Bitter End campaign.

Thats quite a big time commitment so I want to be sure that it is fair experience for a new player like me.

Is it possible in the campaign to successfull invade the Soviet Union with only getting pushed back temporarly.

Is the AI capable enough to steamroll me on the normal difficulty?

What difficulty setting should I take?



vonik -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/22/2017 9:52:41 AM)

You will win easily against the AI if you manage your supply correctly and make a good opening (don't forget bombing AF 1st turn) .
Also have a strategic plan - don't just move your PzK aimlessly, your PzK are what wins or looses a game. Pocket, pocket, pocket (and don't let them escape). Be prepared for the blizzard end 41 .

The true difficulty is against a human, AI at whatever setting is not a match .



Stelteck -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/22/2017 2:04:44 PM)

The AI on normal could be a difficult challenger playing soviet union. It depends on your level.

Did you played smaller scenario such as Road to on normal ? (Road to leningrad, Road to smolensk) Did you won easily or not ?

If not, it will be not so easy. Give the AI all options (real winter, +1 soviet attack bonus, random weather). Difficulty normal.




No idea -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/23/2017 8:00:55 AM)

If it is your first game it is a good challenge. The opening is vital.



countrboy -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/26/2017 11:00:20 PM)

I'm in the middle of the long campaign as Germany - it's June 1943 and I'm enjoying it. It isonly the second game I have played so there has been a lot of learning as I go.

I managed to mess up the first turn a bit, plus I didn't wipe out the Russian Air Force early on either, but I'm still doing ok. Winter at the end of 41 was a challenge, but there was very little fightback from the Soviets in winter 42. I have captured Moscow, but only by stripping the rest of the front of panzers, so Leningrad and everything east of the Don in the South is still Russian hands. Now it's mid-43 and I'm focusing on the Southern front, where my panzers have more space and there's less defensive terrain. It's good fun.



HAWK7 -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/27/2017 2:21:02 AM)

I am interested on what difficulty levels do you play.



countrboy -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/27/2017 4:51:21 AM)

Just normal everything. To be honest I didn't know enough about the game to start fiddling with anything.

I'm no expert either, which probably gives the Soviets a major advantage. Perhaps it's too easy on the normal settings, but it's hard to say in my game. Yes I have Moscow, but that's about it. EDIT - I'm pretending that my continued command of OKH depended on capturing Moscow and that my pleas for a focus on the strategic targets have been ignored by Berlin



HermanGraf -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/27/2017 5:47:58 PM)

I started my FIRST grand campaign a few months ago and it is lots of fun! In 1941 I did terrible in the south but managed to cut off Leningrad in the north and get to a pretty good point near Moscow. I will say I felt the AI did not counter attack me enough, maybe I had destroyed to many of his units early? I am playing against a normal AI.

It is summer of 1944 and I am feeling the weight of the Soviet Air Force on me, they constantly bomb my units (to little effect) but it makes for very long turns. My air force only engages in areas where I concentrate my offenses now. Still, I feel the soviets do NOT attack at all, there may have been less than 10 attacks since 1943. Am I bugged? Soviet manpower is approaching 8 million and I am above 4 million. My summer offenses will commence and probably end up toppling the Soviets once and for all. I control Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad, Rostov, I am a few hundred miles from Baku. The Causcasus supply situation is terrible and its slowing up everything.

Anyway I will say I was a little underwhelmed at how the Soviets performed, hardly any large scale counter attacks. I see big concentration of forces but I never see them capitalize. My northern front is stripped of units with just a few reserves, but the Soviets still do not probe.

My Summer offense will commence probably bagging a few million Soviets and that will be game.



countrboy -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/27/2017 8:02:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HermanGraf

Anyway I will say I was a little underwhelmed at how the Soviets performed, hardly any large scale counter attacks. I see big concentration of forces but I never see them capitalize. My northern front is stripped of units with just a few reserves, but the Soviets still do not probe.


I'd agree with that. Barring 1941, where they did push me back, there have been few counter-attacks from the Soviets. Their manpower is over 10 million in my game and mine is just over 4, so it's certainly not for lack of men. The Soviet AI is too timid, even in winter.



SheperdN7 -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/27/2017 8:41:24 PM)

It is difficult the first time you commit yourself to a full campaign but for your 2nd and 3rd times it is less and less challenging. Bear in mind I have only played AI and not a PBEM game but I have no doubt in my mind that it would be harder.



HermanGraf -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/28/2017 5:54:03 PM)

quote:

I'd agree with that. Barring 1941, where they did push me back, there have been few counter-attacks from the Soviets. Their manpower is over 10 million in my game and mine is just over 4, so it's certainly not for lack of men. The Soviet AI is too timid, even in winter.


countrboy

What does the Soviet Air Force do? And what difficulty are you playing on? Did you give the Soviet +1 attack? I think my next play through I'll try that.




Stelteck -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/28/2017 6:37:08 PM)

You could also all play together in multiplayer it would be great fun !!! [8D]



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/29/2017 1:01:41 AM)

I help Stelteck with posting links to the signup thread for the multiplayer: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4245675
The fascist team is looking for more players. No miracle though that nobody wants to work for the hitlerites though heheheh



countrboy -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (4/29/2017 4:30:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HermanGraf


What does the Soviet Air Force do? And what difficulty are you playing on? Did you give the Soviet +1 attack? I think my next play through I'll try that.



Much like what you described. Lots of bombing but not much damage. A fair bit of interdiction too. I'm just playing normal difficulty, with no attack bonus for the Soviets.

I think the problem is not so much the amount of damage the Soviets cause, but how little they attack. I'm massively outnumbered, but the AI just covers the map with units that sit there doing nothing.



No idea -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/1/2017 3:23:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: countrboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: HermanGraf


What does the Soviet Air Force do? And what difficulty are you playing on? Did you give the Soviet +1 attack? I think my next play through I'll try that.



Much like what you described. Lots of bombing but not much damage. A fair bit of interdiction too. I'm just playing normal difficulty, with no attack bonus for the Soviets.

I think the problem is not so much the amount of damage the Soviets cause, but how little they attack. I'm massively outnumbered, but the AI just covers the map with units that sit there doing nothing.


I agree that the AI is a very big handicap for this game. Not much we can do about it but raising the difficulty level. With 120% morale the ai will be less timid. Even less with 130%. But I wouldnt advice you that unless you are playing with the soviets or you have mastered the game.



countrboy -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/2/2017 12:11:40 AM)

quote:

I agree that the AI is a very big handicap for this game. Not much we can do about it but raising the difficulty level. With 120% morale the ai will be less timid. Even less with 130%. But I wouldnt advice you that unless you are playing with the soviets or you have mastered the game


So a higher morale would actually encourage the AI to be more aggressive? I was worried that all it would do is simply turn each battle into a one-sided affair, without actually resulting in an increase in the number of battles (if you know what I mean). I guess though the AI evaluates the odds and only attacks if it feels confident of victory, so a higher morale should lead to a more attacking stance from the AI?
(sorry if this is basic level stuff, I'm only really getting into the game no, despite having owned it for years)



No idea -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/2/2017 2:52:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: countrboy

quote:

I agree that the AI is a very big handicap for this game. Not much we can do about it but raising the difficulty level. With 120% morale the ai will be less timid. Even less with 130%. But I wouldnt advice you that unless you are playing with the soviets or you have mastered the game


So a higher morale would actually encourage the AI to be more aggressive? I was worried that all it would do is simply turn each battle into a one-sided affair, without actually resulting in an increase in the number of battles (if you know what I mean). I guess though the AI evaluates the odds and only attacks if it feels confident of victory, so a higher morale should lead to a more attacking stance from the AI?
(sorry if this is basic level stuff, I'm only really getting into the game no, despite having owned it for years)


The ai is as bad (or as good, or as agressive) with 80% morale or with 150%. The only thing that changes is that 130% morale makes the ai units be far stronger which, in turn, makes it a bit more agressive (in truth, not more agressive, but having more movement points and a higher CV, makes the AI seem more agressive, as it can move more, attack more and its attacks are more sucesful) But the real difficulty comes because they are stronger, thus, the game becomes more challenging.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/3/2017 12:31:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

I help Stelteck with posting links to the signup thread for the multiplayer: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4245675
The fascist team is looking for more players. No miracle though that nobody wants to work for the hitlerites though heheheh



Considering that a high majority of the Forums writers and players are pro Russian, the rhetoric can get pretty deep on occasions along with the mass of players playing the Russians swamping the amount of German players. I for one am a German player since us Blonde hair blue eye people need to stick together ;-P



Icier -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/3/2017 5:06:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

I help Stelteck with posting links to the signup thread for the multiplayer: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4245675
The fascist team is looking for more players. No miracle though that nobody wants to work for the hitlerites though heheheh



Considering that a high majority of the Forums writers and players are pro Russian, the rhetoric can get pretty deep on occasions along with the mass of players playing the Russians swamping the amount of German players. I for one am a German player since us Blonde hair blue eye people need to stick together ;-P


Most of "us", German Players that I know, have given it away and moved on to other games, as the consensus is that its
too skewered to the Russians.
Hopefully WITE2 will be better.



No idea -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/3/2017 7:07:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ice


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

I help Stelteck with posting links to the signup thread for the multiplayer: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4245675
The fascist team is looking for more players. No miracle though that nobody wants to work for the hitlerites though heheheh



Considering that a high majority of the Forums writers and players are pro Russian, the rhetoric can get pretty deep on occasions along with the mass of players playing the Russians swamping the amount of German players. I for one am a German player since us Blonde hair blue eye people need to stick together ;-P


Most of "us", German Players that I know, have given it away and moved on to other games, as the consensus is that its
too skewered to the Russians.
Hopefully WITE2 will be better.



Well, irl things were "skewered" to the soviets. I guess the problem is people dont like as much to play an unbalanced simulation as playing a more or less balanced game. Dont mistake my post, I understand the rationale for not as many people wanting to play axis as the soviets, but the answer to "why is that?"is in the very nature of the game. It is more a simulation amd less a game.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/3/2017 7:50:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ice


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

I help Stelteck with posting links to the signup thread for the multiplayer: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4245675
The fascist team is looking for more players. No miracle though that nobody wants to work for the hitlerites though heheheh



Considering that a high majority of the Forums writers and players are pro Russian, the rhetoric can get pretty deep on occasions along with the mass of players playing the Russians swamping the amount of German players. I for one am a German player since us Blonde hair blue eye people need to stick together ;-P


Most of "us", German Players that I know, have given it away and moved on to other games, as the consensus is that its
too skewered to the Russians.
Hopefully WITE2 will be better.



Well, irl things were "skewered" to the soviets. I guess the problem is people dont like as much to play an unbalanced simulation as playing a more or less balanced game. Dont mistake my post, I understand the rationale for not as many people wanting to play axis as the soviets, but the answer to "why is that?"is in the very nature of the game. It is more a simulation amd less a game.



I personally like the "Quality" over "Quantity" battle myself. See what I can do with less if you will (Although "quantity" has a "quality" all in and of itself). Although if you have a quantity of "plump" chicks I think I would take the "quality" skinny one ;-P Just saying. I believe I read a long time ago that the Russians didn't rape the skinny ladies in Berlin when they sacked it, they went after the plump ones, so the Russians definitely are after the quantity score on that front ;-O



56ajax -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/4/2017 10:39:21 AM)

I think the game is skewed depending on the capacity of the german opponent; if they play like Pelton then it is skewed to the Germans and if they stuff their opening turns then it is skewed to the Russkies. So it all comes down to discussing the style in which both sides would like to play and describing that in House Rules.



sillyflower -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/4/2017 1:47:34 PM)

I agree that game balance depends on the skill level -assuming both players are equal. The higher the skill level, the more the balance tips towards the Hitlerites. At lower levels the G player does not have the skill to crush the R in the initial blitzkreig.



No idea -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/5/2017 8:13:23 AM)

The problem is in the "win" concept most players have. If you have played this game for a long time, you end up accepting that winning as the germans against a similar skill opponent means holding a line in Russia when the game ends in 1945. The problem is that most players out there dont see that as winning, so they dont like to play as Germany. On top of that, it requires more skill, as it is extremely painful, against a similar skill soviet player, to commit any mistake during the first turn.

I have to say I understand both points of view, after having played the game for two years, but, if the game wants to appeal to a wider audience (something good for bussiness) then it needs to make things more balanced based and less reality based, imho, giving the germans more opportunities to really win than irl.



Stelteck -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/5/2017 8:28:04 AM)

In WITP AE, there is a scenario "greater japan" where the japan have additionnal ressources to prepare for a long war.

It is a very fun scenario with lots of fight.

Maybe additional scenario could have existed with uchronical configuration. (For WITE it is a little late, but for WITE2 maybe it could be investigated).

I think a scenario with a stronger Russia early but a stronger germany later could be great fun.

(Like in this alternate history, Soviet union took seriously the warnings of german attack and was not taken by surprise. But in the other hand, England failed battle of the atlantic and was not able to keep on fighting. As a consequence, no west front and germany was able to fully commit ressources east, so no withdrawal of troops to the west and more german equipment west)

A scenario like this could be use for "balance play", while traditionnal scenario would be more historical.




HermanGraf -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/5/2017 9:10:34 PM)

I believe the problem lies in the original concept. Capturing cities and resources really does not help Germany in the long war. Capturing the oil fields in Baku in 1942/43 should give a big boost to the campaign. I don't understand why this isn't modeled, instead it is straight modeled historically regardless of the victories you have. Why bother capturing the Crimea or even going south to the Caucasus??

I really hope WiTE2 plays with historical and ahistorical concepts depending on your progress as the Germans. And major hits should be taken as the soviets if cities are captured with factories in tact. Making it a resource war would make strategic bombings more useful, contesting Ukraine for as long as possible as soviets would be a great battle, etc.. etc...

As people said WiTE is incomplete, GREAT but incomplete, WiTW is more of a complete game, and I hope WiTE2 really nails it!



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/5/2017 11:03:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

In WITP AE, there is a scenario "greater japan" where the japan have additionnal ressources to prepare for a long war.

It is a very fun scenario with lots of fight.

Maybe additional scenario could have existed with uchronical configuration. (For WITE it is a little late, but for WITE2 maybe it could be investigated).

I think a scenario with a stronger Russia early but a stronger germany later could be great fun.

(Like in this alternate history, Soviet union took seriously the warnings of german attack and was not taken by surprise. But in the other hand, England failed battle of the atlantic and was not able to keep on fighting. As a consequence, no west front and germany was able to fully commit ressources east, so no withdrawal of troops to the west and more german equipment west)

A scenario like this could be use for "balance play", while traditionnal scenario would be more historical.




I don't think strengthening the Soviets in 41 would be a good idea - in a game between two players of equal skill level the Axis would get bogged down very quickly and stuggle to achieve the kill-count and disruption to industry that's required for a game to continue to be competitive past 42.

On the other hand, I think the other side of the equation (the Axis keeping hold of the divisions that normally withdraw west and also getting increased reinforcements into 43) would be very interesting and definitely worth an alternate scenario. Reading the AARs between good evenly matched players it seems to me that 43 is often a bit of a non-event. The German army has lost its teeth and has to go into damage limitation mode and the Soviet player only needs to make modest progress and ensure that they fight enough battles to wear the Axis forces down enough that they start to fall apart in 44/45. If you strengthened the Axis in 43 and moved the 'draw line' to the front line at the beginning of the game you could get a really exciting 43 where in a game between equal players both would feel they needed to attack (or at least stand their ground and fight) in order to win the game.



56ajax -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/6/2017 5:02:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea

The problem is in the "win" concept most players have. If you have played this game for a long time, you end up accepting that winning as the germans against a similar skill opponent means holding a line in Russia when the game ends in 1945. The problem is that most players out there dont see that as winning, so they dont like to play as Germany. On top of that, it requires more skill, as it is extremely painful, against a similar skill soviet player, to commit any mistake during the first turn.

I have to say I understand both points of view, after having played the game for two years, but, if the game wants to appeal to a wider audience (something good for bussiness) then it needs to make things more balanced based and less reality based, imho, giving the germans more opportunities to really win than irl.


I generally agree with your comments and thats why I try to find German opponents who like playing the game as opposed to winning at all costs. My current opponent wanted to play an historical game and I was happy to oblige. Whilst his opening turn was a touch too generous I responded by counter attacking as much as possible instead of running away. Counter attacking is useless btw but it was inline with the spirit of our house rules.

I tend not to play as the german as it is much more technical and a move like the Lvov pocket I find ridiculous.

I would be reluctant to move away from an historical game because it is not a fantasy game, but the Russo german war, though there is room for whatif scenarios like others have said.

Perhaps one of the problems with the game is that no one plays as incompetently as the Russians fought in 1941



vonik -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/6/2017 11:04:24 AM)

Like in so many Eastern Front games (the vast majority), the dynamics is designed in such a way that everything happens in the first 3 opening weeks .
These represent for the German player 80 % of the game .
Depending on the game there always is one best opening and plenty of bad or very bad openings .
Once the German player found out THE best opening, he can repeat it mechanically in every game .
For example in WitE it is bombing AFs, optimising rail conversion, splitting PzDs and closing the Lvov Pocket for the first turn .

However when the German player plays anything worse than the best opening, he always looses in the long run .
So in a way the Russian player mostly has a quite passive style (he can do nothing very intelligent in the first month anyway) waiting for German mistake(s) .

Of course this is nothing like history where the incompetent, inflexible, panicked, uninformed and disorganised Soviet High Command kept on ordering attacks for armies that didn't exist anymore from places that were already in German hands .
The miracle that historically happened was that the simple wear and tear of German mechanised units joined to adverse weather conditions reduced their available machines to something anywhere between 10 and 30% of what they were 4 months earlier .
Only a small part of that unavailability was due to Soviet combat actions .

But a game which would be really historical would be a transport, repair and spare part simulator what wouldn't appeal much to a wargamer :)



gmtello -> RE: Is the German 1941 campaign difficult? (5/6/2017 7:46:37 PM)

Hope wite2 keep the flavour of wite. Witw more complete but Not as fun as wite . Normally as German player u lose most of your games But u obtain fun playing unless russian keeps retreating till 43



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