Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (Full Version)

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Hermann -> Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/26/2017 7:46:59 PM)

Great opponent, lousy strategy, he's close to reaching my cutoff for stopping a game and were talking it out. mid September now Leningrad cut off Novgorod and Karelia about to fall... Dnepropetrovsk and the Dnepr line still holding strong. Bryansk just fell. Guy started with moving most of pzgruppe 1,3,4, 16, 18 and 9 armies to AGN and driving to the Valdai hills after a brilliant Pelton class first turn. I saw it by turn 2 and immediately sent the majority of West and SW fronts to the Area south of lake Illmen. Held him for 10 turns. The Bryansk and Reserve Fronts took over defense of the Landbridge after I Held him at Velikye Luki and ruined his Rzhev push. But the fate of the panzerball is rapidly approaching with nearly 2 million prisoners lost.. couple more pockets and wont be able to hold my line anymore then the line of regiments from Smolensk to kiev will be able to advance... Surround Moscow hold it for the winter vs mild blizzard then panzerball through 1942 20 divisions at a time. Already explained I don't have thew time to spend the next 2 months watching him display his prowess by pocketing a beaten army repeatedly with a 60 division mass of armor. So I generally let it go after 2 million prisoners and the fall of Moscow. Next turn I get to enjoy the 4th pocketing of Moscow defenders. they'll hold for 1 more pocket but he will do the whole encircle Moscow treatment to drag it out. then the fun pocketing of 10 division chunks further north. take at least 2 pockets up there and the northern wing pushing south for the valdai hills super pocket... yawn. then finally Moscow falls and the blessed relief of escaping the game. anyhow heres my reply to one of our exchanges I thought it was cool so im posting it "yup that's the point - not being critical but the whole panzerball concept forgets the huan factor - this isn't a game, it's entertainment, a way to blow off stress, spend offtie during the day considering next moves and options. Interacting with opponents and learning to gauge their potrential actions and responses, managing forces and learning the li mitations of the system... a 1945 campaign takes months and takes up a pretty big portion of your opponents free time. Remember that. When you start a game you enter into a contract with the opponent - you need to recognize and appreciate that he or her is going out of their way to provide you a quality gaming experience and realize your responsibility to offer the same. Winning is neat but its not what this game is about,. Its the shared experience and the camaraderie were here for. The respect of our peers, the challenge and the sense of accomplishment big or small. you can lose a game but win a few battles that it all worthwhile. The panzerball tactics are about dominating and humiliating an opponent. They stress the other player out, make him delay taking turns or even quit from hopelessness and frustration... both players lose im afraid. My admiration for Stefleck is very high. He has shown serioyus moral character - would love to play him sometime and show what a real game is like. Hardluck ive played 3 or four times ive quit every time when the gae gets untenable. Ive had r/l work issues that ruined a few great games and players have drifted off. but when I do play both players enjoy it. I give the best fight I can and try to keep my opponent on his toes. But I play for the long game and realize that to do that I need to entertain my opponent and keep it fairly close to historical boundaries... just lost lost 24 tank corps trying to cut off agn in 42... bad move but it almost worked. now im trying to pocket ags - muhaha ! poor guy is getting hit everywhere all the time and he is responding by spinning out turns at a rapid pace and constantly spoiling my brilliant plans. Ive got Hortlund battering me nonstop and a Russian opponent with 18000 planes in mid 43 starting to steal the initiative. the games are great could've ended em lo ng ago if I had used the panzerball but why ? "



charlie0311 -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/26/2017 8:08:33 PM)

Hi,

IMO Reds can win even with Pzball. Besides the eventual Red Pzball administers plenty of "pain".

Gee, I hope I didn't start anything unintended.



Hermann -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/26/2017 8:38:49 PM)

"can win" and having fun doing it are 2 different things



charlie0311 -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/26/2017 9:11:44 PM)

Well ok then,

Does fun mean no Pzball allowed?



Hermann -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/26/2017 9:28:10 PM)

panzerball is gone in the new fix. "fun" is playing responsibly and respecting your opponent. Were in this together, play your best but don't bottle the poor guy in a corner and toy with him. were looking for a solid historical experience for the most part, not mastering the next level and moving on.



Hermann -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/26/2017 9:37:03 PM)

for my part I think the designers should add a new feature in the game for Russia in 41 for Leningrad and Moscow to reflect the mobilization of labor to build forts when the enemy approaches



charlie0311 -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/26/2017 9:59:58 PM)

ok, I agree with your remarks about respect, and a sense of comaraderie would great IMO.

I have a current game in which I am the axis player, latest patch, hqbu and Pzball allowed.

By "can win" I mean the reds can save the army in '41, then '42 is another stern test, then red 2.0 (must be very carefully designed and built, even then '43 is/can be dangerous for the reds) and, when red 2.0 is ready it's the axis who get all the "fun".

I agree loosing Lgrad and Moscow not historical, a morale boost for any units near these important cities would go a long way.



Stelteck -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/27/2017 7:00:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann

panzerball is gone in the new fix. "fun" is playing responsibly and respecting your opponent.


Ho, you have insight of future patches ? Could you tell us more about it ? [&o]

I fully agree with your statement about the fun.

How to promote a more interesting game ? I'am not sūre artificial mecanism around Moscow or Leningrad could be a good solution.

I would say there is maybe 2 things to consider :

- First, loosing moscow and Leningrad could be in fact, not so important, and do not prevent the red army to be dangerous and fun to play later in the game. But the fact that loosing moscow&Leningrad kill the game is that in most scenario especially bitter end, there is so much victory points attached to it.
It is funny how taking leningrad, which seems not so hard, award so much victory point while taking stalingrad, which is really hard, award so few.

It is also a shame there is not objective behind moscow in the center. Moscow give a tons of victory points, but taking Grozny or Khazan, none.... [X(]

- Second, campaign are longs, but manpower production is so thin now that each defeat is a huge blow that is very hard to recover. Playing soviet, i do not feel like a comeback kid at all.
It would be more fun if it was maybe easier to recover from defeat. Like maybe increasing for both side returning men from disabled status (or even allowed some POW to escape...).








Hermann -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/27/2017 7:28:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer



quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann

my argument is the same as always. Supply. Rail is the only way to carry supply and rail lines have a capacity. unlimited supply to a point at the end of a rail line has to stop to avoid the insanity of 30-40 panzer divisions fully supplied at the end of 1000 mile line rail line with 2 tracks. a system of depot counters is the best option with supply actually traveling to the counters and a real capacity in the depots




WitE2 uses an improved version of the WitW logistics system. Freight movement is tracked along rails and competes with unit movement. Congestion imposes higher costs although the new double rail lines provide higher capacity. Depot capacity is also variable. The Panzer Ball is no longer a good tactic and major advances have to exploit good communications.




RedLancer -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/27/2017 1:16:40 PM)

Although I have been quoted correctly some additional comments may be useful for those who only occasionally visit the Forum.

WitE2 is not a fix for WitE - it is a whole new game. WitE2 can trace lineage back to WitE so many things are familiar but very many things are different too. As Testers are learning you have to unlearn many successful WitE behaviours. The changes to the logistics model makes a big difference as does a complete redo of the combat model. When we add the code I expect the new system allowing more units than the current three counters to be added to urban terrain will have a big difference too.

WitE2 is still at least a year from release.



Hermann -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/27/2017 4:18:35 PM)

I still say theres woOtage in the air



Nix77 -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/29/2017 10:50:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann

for my part I think the designers should add a new feature in the game for Russia in 41 for Leningrad and Moscow to reflect the mobilization of labor to build forts when the enemy approaches


There is already such feature, check "Civilian Labor Value" from the manual. Big cities send considerable amount of labor teams to help in digging, you just need to have units in place to activate them.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/29/2017 4:35:32 PM)

From reading AARs there seem to be people who can stop Panzerbals and have fun doing so. Some see this game as a contest between two brains, some want to replay history.
So if you don't like Panzerballs, you will very likely find people who agree with houserules.
But if both sides play free the Germans can milk logistics, the Soviets can use ant defense, both sides use hindsight, the soviets can bomb the Luftwaffe into submission etc.
In the end there is so much gameyness everywhere that things level out and it becomes a fair fight [:)]



Hermann -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (4/29/2017 10:05:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

From reading AARs there seem to be people who can stop Panzerbals and have fun doing so. Some see this game as a contest between two brains, some want to replay history.
So if you don't like Panzerballs, you will very likely find people who agree with houserules.
But if both sides play free the Germans can milk logistics, the Soviets can use ant defense, both sides use hindsight, the soviets can bomb the Luftwaffe into submission etc.
In the end there is so much gameyness everywhere that things level out and it becomes a fair fight [:)]



I really like your post - very wise.



thedude357 -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (5/1/2017 3:51:37 PM)

interesting story, but use paragraphs bro.



Hermann -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (5/1/2017 4:42:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedude357

interesting story, but use paragraphs bro.


read von kleists post my friend - im one of the ones without a brain and declare myself and my fellow brainless proletariats heretofore exempt from fascist paragraphs



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (5/3/2017 12:45:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

From reading AARs there seem to be people who can stop Panzerbals and have fun doing so. Some see this game as a contest between two brains, some want to replay history.
So if you don't like Panzerballs, you will very likely find people who agree with houserules.
But if both sides play free the Germans can milk logistics, the Soviets can use ant defense, both sides use hindsight, the soviets can bomb the Luftwaffe into submission etc.
In the end there is so much gameyness everywhere that things level out and it becomes a fair fight [:)]



Hmmmmmm, what I see the problem as is "player experience/skill" is the key factor as eluded to in your first paragraph as "a contest between two brains". Many of the items pointed to here is how well versed a player is in playing. When the experience level is on par with each other then you have a very long engaging game. But when there is a disparity in this skill level you get walk away games by one of the sides.

(BTW ant defense doesnt really work if you know what to do, the German Air force in capable hands with equal skill level between the players can survive a very long time without getting bomb'd into submission. Is there some gameyness as you call it, yes. But the majority of the pitfalls that happen is player experience/skill level within the game)



Hermann -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (5/3/2017 2:32:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

From reading AARs there seem to be people who can stop Panzerbals and have fun doing so. Some see this game as a contest between two brains, some want to replay history.
So if you don't like Panzerballs, you will very likely find people who agree with houserules.
But if both sides play free the Germans can milk logistics, the Soviets can use ant defense, both sides use hindsight, the soviets can bomb the Luftwaffe into submission etc.
In the end there is so much gameyness everywhere that things level out and it becomes a fair fight [:)]



Hmmmmmm, what I see the problem as is "player experience/skill" is the key factor as eluded to in your first paragraph as "a contest between two brains". Many of the items pointed to here is how well versed a player is in playing. When the experience level is on par with each other then you have a very long engaging game. But when there is a disparity in this skill level you get walk away games by one of the sides.

(BTW ant defense doesnt really work if you know what to do, the German Air force in capable hands with equal skill level between the players can survive a very long time without getting bomb'd into submission. Is there some gameyness as you call it, yes. But the majority of the pitfalls that happen is player experience/skill level within the game)


I don't agree. I consider myself pretty skilled. I've got a few games ongoing vs. panzerballers that are well in hand. If angry enough or if I'm familiar with the opponent I do very well. trouble is I don't enjoy it. And as the opposing player vs. a new guy I don't take advantage of "skill" except to teach them to stop letting their tanks loose in my backyard, they really need to play into 43 to understand how fun the red army can be. Ive watched new players mature and grow as a a game progresses into fine players, sure I could've taken advantage of em but why ? when theres a parity it's no holds barred.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Discussions with a rising panzerballer - (5/4/2017 2:34:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

From reading AARs there seem to be people who can stop Panzerbals and have fun doing so. Some see this game as a contest between two brains, some want to replay history.
So if you don't like Panzerballs, you will very likely find people who agree with houserules.
But if both sides play free the Germans can milk logistics, the Soviets can use ant defense, both sides use hindsight, the soviets can bomb the Luftwaffe into submission etc.
In the end there is so much gameyness everywhere that things level out and it becomes a fair fight [:)]



Hmmmmmm, what I see the problem as is "player experience/skill" is the key factor as eluded to in your first paragraph as "a contest between two brains". Many of the items pointed to here is how well versed a player is in playing. When the experience level is on par with each other then you have a very long engaging game. But when there is a disparity in this skill level you get walk away games by one of the sides.

(BTW ant defense doesnt really work if you know what to do, the German Air force in capable hands with equal skill level between the players can survive a very long time without getting bomb'd into submission. Is there some gameyness as you call it, yes. But the majority of the pitfalls that happen is player experience/skill level within the game)


I don't agree. I consider myself pretty skilled. I've got a few games ongoing vs. panzerballers that are well in hand. If angry enough or if I'm familiar with the opponent I do very well. trouble is I don't enjoy it. And as the opposing player vs. a new guy I don't take advantage of "skill" except to teach them to stop letting their tanks loose in my backyard, they really need to play into 43 to understand how fun the red army can be. Ive watched new players mature and grow as a a game progresses into fine players, sure I could've taken advantage of em but why ? when theres a parity it's no holds barred.



Disagreement between different views is a good thing. But it does seem you are referencing the experience/skill level in your disagreement argument ;-P



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