[WAD] Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (Full Version)

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HistorySmith72 -> [WAD] Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (5/31/2017 2:20:42 AM)

Hello!
New to the game and new to scenario creating!

I have a real interest in 1980s Cold War scenarios so I wanted to try my hand at making one. A Soviet submarine division breaking out into the Atlantic.
NATO opposition is several small ASW groups backed up by P-3s out of Iceland and Norway.

Conducting a trial run, when my Tu-16RM Badgers encounter some P-3s in-route to their patrol zones. The Badgers proceed to pursue, engage and shoot down the P-3s with their tail guns.

Sure, that's plausible (sort-of), but not really realistic. Those tail guns are for defense only! javascript:void(AddText('[:\-]'))

I believe there is a setting to specify not attack with those guns but should that really be necessary?

Suggestions and comments are welcome!

Thanks!



mikmykWS -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (5/31/2017 2:54:14 AM)

This is interesting. What kind of mission are they assigned to and do you have opportunity fire turned on?

Save game would help folks explain exactly what is going on.

Thanks!

Mike



HistorySmith72 -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (5/31/2017 3:31:46 AM)

The Badgers were flying a ASuW patrol mission and the P-3C were flying an ASW mission. Both had assigned patrol areas and they crossed paths on the way.

IF the P-3s started chasing the Badegers then it makes since to shoot them down. But when the Badgers detected the Orions, the Badgers hunted them!



Dysta -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (5/31/2017 4:10:26 AM)

Might be sounds unrealistic because bomber kill other bomber/fighter is the thing before Cold War, since most of them are installed with lots of turrets. Maybe the pilot is extremely desperate to take a piece from a slower plane, since Badger is a jet and faster than props.



cns180784 -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 12:09:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: History_Smith

The Badgers were flying a ASuW patrol mission and the P-3C were flying an ASW mission. Both had assigned patrol areas and they crossed paths on the way.

IF the P-3s started chasing the Badegers then it makes since to shoot them down. But when the Badgers detected the Orions, the Badgers hunted them!


Did the ASuW mission of the Badgers have engage opportunity targets set to yes? if so then that would explain it. But i had an oddity happen myself in a scenario i was playing last night. An Arleigh Burke class Destroyer fired a Tomahawk TLAM at a hostile helipad without having engage opportunity targets on, and it wasnt assigned to a mission i just manually plotted a few waypoints for it. To get it to stop engaging land targets with its Tomahawks i had to change the WRA setting to not allowed to fire at anything and that worked. But shouldnt have fired in the first place with engage opportunity targets set to no.



Fer_Cabo -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 8:49:37 AM)

Hi folks,

I'm getting a little lost here... Is CMANO engine so smart as to decide that the Badger can engage an "opportunity (Airborne) target" while on a ASUW mission -odd...- BASED ONLY on the basis that the opportuny aircraft target is defenceless against its (Badger's) weapons??

If not, it might as well engage a nearby harrier, or a low flying helicopter, or any air-to-air capable plattform (a Sidewinder wingpoint or a cannon pod is enough...). This -otherwise automatic- behaviour by the Badger would not make any sense, but even worse, would carry quite a few probabilities that it's the badger the one going down.



Dimitris -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 9:38:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WARMONGER1944
Hi folks,

I'm getting a little lost here... Is CMANO engine so smart as to decide that the Badger can engage an "opportunity (Airborne) target" while on a ASUW mission -odd...- BASED ONLY on the basis that the opportuny aircraft target is defenceless against its (Badger's) weapons??

If not, it might as well engage a nearby harrier, or a low flying helicopter, or any air-to-air capable plattform (a Sidewinder wingpoint or a cannon pod is enough...). This -otherwise automatic- behaviour by the Badger would not make any sense, but even worse, would carry quite a few probabilities that it's the badger the one going down.


....which is why the Badger (or its group, or its mission) should have the "Engage opportunity targets" setting set to false.



Fer_Cabo -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 9:58:04 AM)

Totally agreed Sunburn... But the point is: Wouldn't it make much better sense that the "Engage Opportunity Targets" options referred only to the type of targets in that mission-type??

Because indeed, i'd like my Badger to attack the main targets defined in its ASUW mission (the CARRIER group vessels), but i'd MIGHT like it not to ignore/lose the opportunity to engage the lone-picket-FFG it casually detected while enroute to the planned release-point for its ASMs...



Dimitris -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 10:02:10 AM)

Bug report, a couple weeks from now: "Ever since you guys made the change in the 'Engage TOOs' behavior that allows engaging only TOOs of the mission type, my F-16s on a ground strike mission don't manouver to launch AMRAAMs at pop-up MiGs! The game is now definitely broken for me."

[:)]



Eggstor -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 11:15:55 AM)

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. [:)]



Fer_Cabo -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 11:47:05 AM)

Fair point...

With CMANO (forcedly) user-made-unit-behaviour-logic and the limited tools available, guess that - for now- the only way then to avoid my Backfires attacking a carrier's CAP F-14s or actual Superhornets is to set off the "Engage Opportunity Targets" option. Whenever turned on, the units will probably start doing crazy things. Between both "bads" i sincerely prefer them to just stick to the mission and ignore everything else. If they're attacked, then they'll forget about the mission (at least momentarily) anyway.

Given the fact that we're only talking about a very limited and specific problem, i wonder if it would really be that complicated to just add some very limited logic or Platform-DB-Adjustment in order to define those gun-turrets as "Defensive-Only" weapons which can't be considered by CMANO for any "automatic-target-picking" nor "backward-strafing" or the likes...



Rory Noonan -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 12:04:51 PM)

[deleted]



Eggstor -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 12:43:53 PM)

Without a scenario to test (likely because the original poster doesn't meet the criteria to post files), I'm just spitballing here.

All the loadouts I'm finding for the Badger have as their default weapons state "Winchester: Mission-specific weapons have been expended. Disengage immediately.". The default for ASuW missions, both patrol and strike, is to use the loadout setting. Therefore, the Badgers shouldn't be proactively hunting down aircraft.

What likely is happening is the mission is using a non-standard weapons state that allows for air-to-air guns to be used in an offensive role. There are various shotgun states that allow for easy targets of opportunity with WVR/strike (short-range) weapons but don't allow air-to-air guns to be used in an offensive role. That wouldn't be an issue with the Badger because its ASM loadouts are 100% stand-off.

As for allowing a strike (as opposed to a patrol) to hit pop-up targets, there is a checkbox next to the target list that says, "Pre-planned targets (in target list) only." Unchecking that will allow the assigned units to hit other targets of that type...after the target list is exhausted.



mikmykWS -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 2:01:32 PM)

Hi Guys

Attached is a test scenario with a backfire assigned to strike mission against a land target and a visible target Cessna on cap with Opportunity fire turned on. Notice the Backfire doesn't chase the Cessna.

Thanks

Mike



mikmykWS -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 2:02:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WARMONGER1944

Fair point...

With CMANO (forcedly) user-made-unit-behaviour-logic and the limited tools available, guess that - for now- the only way then to avoid my Backfires attacking a carrier's CAP F-14s or actual Superhornets is to set off the "Engage Opportunity Targets" option. Whenever turned on, the units will probably start doing crazy things. Between both "bads" i sincerely prefer them to just stick to the mission and ignore everything else. If they're attacked, then they'll forget about the mission (at least momentarily) anyway.

Given the fact that we're only talking about a very limited and specific problem, i wonder if it would really be that complicated to just add some very limited logic or Platform-DB-Adjustment in order to define those gun-turrets as "Defensive-Only" weapons which can't be considered by CMANO for any "automatic-target-picking" nor "backward-strafing" or the likes...


See my post with test file above. Can you produce a test file showing this happening?

Thanks

Mike



mikmykWS -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 2:12:41 PM)

Here is a second test.

This time backfire set to ASuW Patrol. visible ship target added and patroling AAW retained. Opportunity fire on, A/G Straffing On, Shotfugun 75% of relevant weapons allow targets of opportunity including air to air guns on. Second test removed A/G straffing to make sure it wasn't shooting out its ammo. In both cases Backfire hit the ship and didn't chase the aircraft.

Mike




mikmykWS -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 2:14:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Eggstor

Without a scenario to test (likely because the original poster doesn't meet the criteria to post files), I'm just spitballing here.

All the loadouts I'm finding for the Badger have as their default weapons state "Winchester: Mission-specific weapons have been expended. Disengage immediately.". The default for ASuW missions, both patrol and strike, is to use the loadout setting. Therefore, the Badgers shouldn't be proactively hunting down aircraft.

What likely is happening is the mission is using a non-standard weapons state that allows for air-to-air guns to be used in an offensive role. There are various shotgun states that allow for easy targets of opportunity with WVR/strike (short-range) weapons but don't allow air-to-air guns to be used in an offensive role. That wouldn't be an issue with the Badger because its ASM loadouts are 100% stand-off.

As for allowing a strike (as opposed to a patrol) to hit pop-up targets, there is a checkbox next to the target list that says, "Pre-planned targets (in target list) only." Unchecking that will allow the assigned units to hit other targets of that type...after the target list is exhausted.


I'm just testing here.

Check the opportunity2 file above. I think I captured all the settings you mentioned but behavior still good.

Probably best to get a file from the original tester.

Thanks

Mike



Eggstor -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 2:43:24 PM)

Something's off with the gun mount on the Backfire in the test scenarios - at least under DB3000 v466, the weapons on the gun mount (23mm Gsh-23M Twin (600 rounds x2)) are flares, not gun bursts. This affects all versions of the Backfire in DB3000, both with that mount and the 23mm Gsh-23M (1200 rounds) mount).

Let me see what happens to Opportunity2 (as that is what I downloaded first) when a Blinder (with a working tailgun) is added. Also, one thing I hadn't considered is what happens when a bomber on ASuW patrol gets within 0.8 nm (the range of the Blinder's tailgun) of an aircraft marked hostile. Self-defense might be triggered then.

Edit - the Blinder does go engaged offensive against the plane, but as it stays at 300 feet and the other plane is at 36,000 feet, it doesn't fire.



Fer_Cabo -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 2:48:21 PM)

What a nice ending to the discussion! Thanks a lot Eggstor!!



mikmykWS -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 2:58:47 PM)

Nice catch Eggs. Will put a ticket in on that one.

Added Badgers with tailguns with ammo same result in the attached files.

Thanks

Mike



mikmykWS -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 3:02:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WARMONGER1944

What a nice ending to the discussion! Thanks a lot Eggstor!!


If you're not willing to test things etc. could you at least hold on the posts until we get it solved?

Thanks

Mike



Eggstor -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 3:21:56 PM)

I was already reviewing various actions with the Blinder in the mix and the Citation at 1000 feet (so the Blinder could fire on it if it chose to do so), and no matter what the weapons state is, including those that specify "no air-to-air guns", the Blinder will engage the Citation with its guns as long as Engage Opportunity Targets is active. Conversely, if Engage Opportunity Targets is inactive, the Blinder won't engage the Citation no matter what the weapons state is (including those that specify to engage targets of opportunity with air-to-air guns).

I expect the Badger versions to perform the same.

Just as a reminder, opportunity targets are those other than the target type(s) of the current mission (e.g. air targets in ASuW missions).



mikmykWS -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 3:52:04 PM)

Thanks Steve.

Could you post the file so we can see it? Guys we really need these to see what's going on. We want to help but you got to help get us there with the replication part. Oh version you're using would be great as well.

Thanks

Mike



Eggstor -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 4:05:48 PM)

Uploading the file. I'm using 936.15 (via Steam)/DB3000 v466.

The changes from the original Opportunity2 file:

- The addition of a Tu-22 Blinder
- The Citation patrol mission altitude is set at 1000 feet.



mikmykWS -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (6/1/2017 4:42:02 PM)

Perfect Steve. Clear as day. Thanks!

Mike



ComDev -> RE: Noob Question - Tu-16 Badgers has Air Superiority Role? (1/21/2018 7:34:05 PM)

This is by design. Don't turn on Opportunity fire unless you really really mean it [8D]

As Dimitris commented, adjusting the behavior creates weird edge cases elsewhere.



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