Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (Full Version)

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Searry -> Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/5/2017 3:08:12 PM)

How did they do this? When I play Axis I'm near Mogilev on turn 4. How do the motorized units get fuel? I can never get HQ buildups each turn.
I'm really baffled and I don't know what to do.



Telemecus -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/5/2017 3:20:44 PM)

Axis usually have enough fuel in the tanks at the start to keep going for two turns. So If you can get to Mogilev in turn 2 you will have enough fuel to do it. Zigazgging there and doing combats on the way means arriving later than turn 2 - and after you have finished your at start fuel. Usually HQ buildups start being made on turn 3 as a result - and will certainly get you there as a result.

If you rely on normal fuel deliveries having a good rail repair plan can help. If you are still surrounding units and leaving them a turn to finish them off in front of your rail repair units then they will be crossing newly controlled territory and spending more movement points as a result - and take longer to get forward. If you do not have paths of clear terrain to your units the supply lines get longer. And even when a supply path is in your control, being next to or in a ZOC of an enemy unit increases movement points still further. The more movement points in a supply path the less gets delivered. Beginners tend to stress pocketing as much as you can - but with more experience you may choose to rout enemy out of the way where there is a valuable supply path.

Worth keeping your first level HQs within five hexes of its units and then as close as possible to railheads - that makes a huge difference.

After that you can use airdrops etc - but compared to normal supply and HQ buildups they are marginal.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/5/2017 3:24:32 PM)

Think about which way his panzers took and count the MPs (you find the tables for tactical movement cost in the manual).
German Panzers have 150-200% fuel at start so they have nearly full MPs in turn 2.
Starting next to Minsk:
11 hexagons=11 base MPs
11 enemy/pending hexagons=11 MPs enemy terrain penalty for 86 Morale+ Mot. Division
2 minor rivers=4MPs extra
5 light wood hexagons=5 MPs extra
Sum=29 MPs
Panzers can have 50 so you could even push futher under perfect circumstances.

So you have to use your units to make sure your opponent has to fight&move through zone of control which means extra movement cost.



Searry -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/5/2017 3:25:02 PM)

I think if I stagger troops all the way to Moscow from Mogilev I can delay, after that it's defeat. This really shines some new light on my play.



Searry -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/5/2017 3:26:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Think about which way his panzers took and count the MPs (you find the tables for tactical movement cost in the manual).
German Panzers have 150-200% fuel at start so they have nearly full MPs in turn 2.
Starting next to Minsk:
11 hexagons=11 base MPs
11 enemy/pending hexagons=11 MPs enemy terrain penalty for 86 Morale+ Mot. Division
2 minor rivers=4MPs extra
5 light wood hexagons=5 MPs extra
Sum=29 MPs
Panzers can have 50 so you could even push futher under perfect circumstances.

So you have to use your units to make sure your opponent has to fight&move through zone of control which means extra movement cost.

He avoided all combat with his mobile troops. This is revolutionary for me!



Telemecus -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/5/2017 3:32:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Searry
He avoided all combat with his mobile troops. This is revolutionary for me!



The best warrior is the one who never has to fight a battle - or something like that from Sun Tzu

Getting to a position where your opponent is forced to retreat, or with such overwhelming force it is hopeless, is far better than actually fighting.

Historically, although not necessarily how people play here, mobile troops were looking to avoid fights and slip through the enemy gaps without a fight. If fighting is to be done - leave it to the foot infantry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Searry
I think if I stagger troops all the way to Moscow from Mogilev I can delay, after that it's defeat.


Usually it is delay all the way to Moscow - then the blizzard comes and you win.



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/5/2017 8:03:00 PM)

Is he over the river anywhere? If not and you can put an unbroken line of units (pretty much any unit serves this purpose) along the eastern bank then he's going to find it hard to cross before the infantry catches up. Armoured units suffer big combat penalties attacking across major rivers and then even if they win a battle serve further big movement penalties actually crossing so long as they are going into an enemy ZOC.

Don't panic at this point - the Russians take a real pasting in the first couple of turns turns no matter how good you are. I wouldn't start retreating east of the rivers yet - the Panzers are now too far from their rail line to do any damage in terms of cutting you off in that area I think. It's when the infantry catches up that you have to be a lot more careful not to get too greedy defending the river and risk getting armies worth of stuff pocketed.



glvaca -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/5/2017 8:51:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Searry

I think if I stagger troops all the way to Moscow from Mogilev I can delay, after that it's defeat. This really shines some new light on my play.


Hmmm, not sure I'd recommend that, not to that extreme. Find the best possible defensive positions between Smolenks and Moscow and start digging, multiple lines. Only leave
a checkerboard as a rear guard and then in forts 2 or more and bad panzer terrain (if you have that option)and inter ZOC's.

Well my 2 cents.



No idea -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/6/2017 11:29:27 AM)

His armoured units must be very far from infantry. That means you have one turn to encircle some of his armoured units. That will stop them cold.

Beware it is not a trap and you end with your encircling units encircled. If you manage to encircle some of them with a good number of your units I think you will be able to stop them for longer than what they have won now.



Telemecus -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/6/2017 12:30:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea

His armoured units must be very far from infantry. That means you have one turn to encircle some of his armoured units. That will stop them cold.

Beware it is not a trap and you end with your encircling units encircled. If you manage to encircle some of them with a good number of your units I think you will be able to stop them for longer than what they have won now.



If he has made sure that at least some infantry is following close behind (i.e. not getting into combats) they will usually be one turn behind the mobile troops (they have fewer movement points but will be moving on friendly controlled hexes). If so then you should expect some infantry close to Mogilev on turn 3.



Stelteck -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/6/2017 12:35:57 PM)

Looks like your opponent know his stuff [;)]



timmyab -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/6/2017 5:29:04 PM)

Most German players will do one or possibly two HQ buildups in the center on turn three with one or two other panzer corps rested for the week. This gives a false sense of security on turn three which is often shattered on turn four and especially turn five when 9th and 4th armies are in position to attack in strength.
Against a strong opponent these days it's too dangerous to defend the landbridge/Dnieper line beyond turn four. I just leave a rearguard and back off to a line anchored around Smolensk.



Searry -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/6/2017 6:34:49 PM)

I can't say how my troops are positioned but very good points here.
I had no idea you could do this, and the troops are indeed resting now. Calm before the storm.

I need to completely rethink my German play from now on since I had placed an emphasis on pocketing, when indeed it looks like routing does the better job. Not sure if this was intended by the developers.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/6/2017 6:41:22 PM)

Encircling should be the NR 1 priotity.
Where did you get from that routing is better?



Telemecus -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/6/2017 6:55:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
Encircling should be the NR 1 priotity.
Where did you get from that routing is better?


Possibly me

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Beginners tend to stress pocketing as much as you can - but with more experience you may choose to rout enemy out of the way where there is a valuable supply path.


Encircling should be number one priority and the big war winning weapon of the Axis. Perhaps I should have qualified more my comment. Perhaps 5% of the time you should not get that last extra unit encircled if it will really make a difference to supply. For instance in turn 1 doing the best encirclements will slow your best rail routes.

Also you need to be aware of units that you can rout this turn that will be pocketed on future turns. On turn one I do rout units that I know will be mine on turn 2 or 3 anyway - I do not really count them as a rout any how.

Or put it another way, you want to encircle as many units as possible. But not doing some now can mean doing more later.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/6/2017 7:11:12 PM)

I fully agree Telemecus. I just understood Searry so that he suggested to drop encirclements entirely.



flatsix518 -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/6/2017 7:21:13 PM)

Hi y'all.

I don't consider myself to be much more than a novice at WitE, but here are my two cents.

I think it is worth while for the Russians to put up a fight along the upper Dnepr River (from the bend at X80 Y53 to X81 Y69).

The major rivers are pretty defensible in this game. While the Germans do arrive quickly to the Dnepr, their tongues are hanging out a bit and they are probably a turn or so ahead of their supply lines and infantry support.

In the little bit of experience I've had, defenses along major river lines cannot be broken without well planned and supported attacks including infantry and air support. Hasty attacks by panzer spear heads won't get the job done. I know, I've got little digital panzer divisions with the scars and casualties to prove it.

If you are going to make a stand along the Dnepr you need to do a couple of things.

1) Include Vitebsk and the woods hexes south of it in your planning. If the Germans breakthru there, your Dnepr stand is pretty much finished and you then have a severe risk of getting your river defenses rolled up and surrounded.

2) The earlier you can get guys digging holes (fortifications), the better. The riverline plus 1+ level forts is much improved.

3) Pay attention to HQs positioning. Also look at the use of a checkerboard in a second line of armor units set to reserve mode.

The big issue is when to give it up. If you make a big investment in troops along the river, they are at risk. You gotta know when to quit and retreat. Having a smattering of units behind your main line can prevent a complete encirclement. The movement costs the Germans suffer to cross major rivers, plus making them move thru Russian zocs and attack units can help keep them from completing the encirclement.

Behind the Dnepr is a minor river plus woods that can be good to fall back to. I have sometimes put routed units in those hexes to recover. There they can build some forts that Dnepr defenders can fall back to. That line won't hold for long. But the idea is to make the Germans burn the summer and take as many turns as possible to get to Moscow.

Again, I'm not an expert -- but hopefully this makes sense for some players.

John



Searry -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/6/2017 9:18:19 PM)

But what if you go south of mogilev near the marshes. Completely possible. My opponent seems to concentrate the mobile divisions on each farthest flank to spread out my forces. I'm terrified! Soon they will punch through the Dnepr from the center if I weaken it.



flatsix518 -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/6/2017 9:30:06 PM)

There is a lot of defensible river bank south from X80 Y59.

You need to do what you're most comfortable doing.

John



Commanderski -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/7/2017 12:07:37 PM)

In the South you have a lot of quality tanks that can cause a lot of problems for the Germans. Try to get a somewhat coordinated counter attack if you can or at least get them behind the Dnepr as part of your river defenses.



Stelteck -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/7/2017 1:27:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

In the South you have a lot of quality tanks that can cause a lot of problems for the Germans. Try to get a somewhat coordinated counter attack if you can or at least get them behind the Dnepr as part of your river defenses.


They have max 18mp doing a 16MP decisive attack with them is quite difficult, but they have some fighting power in defense or reserve.



Searry -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/9/2017 11:39:53 AM)

I think my opponent is now either concentrating all the mobile troops from agn and agc and will try to push to Smolensk without a river crossing OR trying to obscure the real direction of the attack by stacking the mobile troops with infantry to confuse the planes. Another possibility is a concentrated panzer wedge towards Leningrad. What should I do when recon fails to reveal divisions?



Stelteck -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/9/2017 12:01:17 PM)

Rushing toward moscow with concentrated panzer force is the new current strategy fashion. (then heading NE to put leningrad in danger).



Commanderski -> RE: Opponent near Mogilev on turn 2 (6/9/2017 5:24:08 PM)

quote:

Rushing toward moscow with concentrated panzer force is the new current strategy fashion. (then heading NE to put leningrad in danger).


The reason they can do that now is that there is no weather in the Summer of '41 to delay them. if Random weather was back they would end up just short of Moscow before the real mud season arrives in October.



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