UV / Advanced Third Reich combo? (Full Version)

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Fred98 -> UV / Advanced Third Reich combo? (5/9/2003 6:58:49 AM)

From time to time we have dreamed of a computer version of Advanced Third Reich (“ATR”).

But ATR was a board game and as a result many things are abstracted. For example:

Strategic bombing
Submarine warfare
Naval missions

But all these are done very well in Uncommon Valour.

It seems to me that if you could take the best features of both games, you could make a great game.

Les, I am not sure whether you have played Uncommon Valour??



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/9/2003 8:01:04 AM)

Joe have not played UV, but I am familiar with computer games using a comon game engine and transporting it into other designs.

Not sure it could handle A3R enough to warrant leaving the A3R name on it.
The common comment though, where wargames are concerned board game or computer, is the Pacific realm is usually at odds with the war as it was fought in Europe.

To give two good examples, Rising Sun was not seen as good as A3R in some aspects, and the Strategic Command community has commented, that the design would have trouble moving to a Pacific setting.

Some games don't have the same trouble based on scale though. Both Steel Panthers and ASL have no trouble regardless of where the setting is placed.

I think the problems only begin when the game goes past theatre level combat simulations. In that respect UV might make a decent European platform. Not sure though, that is a considered guess only based on the small exposure I have had with UV on forums.



Raverdave -> (5/10/2003 1:43:04 PM)

UV would really need to boost up the landwarfare side of things before it could be ported to the ETO.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/10/2003 10:18:07 PM)

Question though for the UV players out there, that should be able to comment adequately.

Do you think the UV program can have the land warfare element adequately upgraded to the more involved European land warfare requirements?

It has been my note, that most wargames of the European setting, concentrate on landwarfare, and leave naval warfare more abstracted or at the very least only as supportive.
This in turn makes the games difficult to port to the Pacific where a detailed naval option is logically required.

But I am assuming, an already existing detailed naval option with a basic land warfare design, would be easier to add a more detailed land warfare option to it.

What's the views on that?



pasternakski -> (5/10/2003 10:59:39 PM)

Let's see how they handle it in WITP. My guess is that the level of detail required to represent land warfare in WWII Europe is just too much for the UV engine. How, for example, would you handle blitzkrieg? Besides, UV associates land units with "bases" and has no means of simulating the complex role of headquarters beyond simple support and combat power augmentation.

I guess my jury is still out on this one for now, Les.



Raverdave -> (5/11/2003 8:05:11 AM)

I would say that the air combat and naval combat are just about spot-on, but as others have said, the land combat would need a major re-work if it was to use the UV engine. Not that this cannot be done. I guess we shall just have to see how well things pan out in WiTP. But a UV/ A3R is a dream combination that I would think the Matrix guys have their eye on.

It would match WiTP as being the "mother" of all war games.!:cool:



pasternakski -> (5/11/2003 9:00:10 AM)

...and let's just remember to do the Mediterranean game FIRST before we go messing about.



Raverdave -> (5/11/2003 9:51:41 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pasternakski
[B]...and let's just remember to do the Mediterranean game FIRST before we go messing about. [/B][/QUOTE]

You got that right! UV Med !:D



Fallschirmjager -> Re: UV / Advanced Third Reich combo? (5/11/2003 9:54:48 AM)

I for one wouldnt buy a beast like this

100 million fought WW2....

You guys are trying to put it in the hands of one person

But thats just my opinion



Platoonist -> (5/11/2003 2:05:36 PM)

UV would also have to boost the production and R&D end of things to work for the ETO.

I've been following this European War/Pacific War discrepancy over at the Hearts of Iron forums. While the consensus is that HOI does a so-so job of representing land warfare the general feeling is that it falls down simulating naval warfare...and in particular the high-tempo carrier operations as practiced by Japan and the US.

I think that is the big part of the challenge. You have two completely types of warfare going on at the same time on different halves of the planet even though the weapons in many cases are the same. Plus the geography of the Pacific (atolls, steaming jungles) is so markedly different from that of Europe.

If WiTP comes close to the mark of simulating something as vast and complex as the Pacific War I'll consider it a marvel in it's own right. Even that as Fallschirmjager noted would be still be a beast to play....but I would love to try. :)



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/11/2003 8:51:06 PM)

Hmm I can say this much.

The people producing the global capable World at War game (its the A3R-Rising Sun combination design) are asking 175 bucks for it. When I saw that, I almost had heart failure hehe.

It's highly unlikely I will see that sort of cash for a game I effectively already own (I own A3R, and that is basically enough for me).

I think if some manner of UV extrapolation into a global setting concept was produced, I would consider a fairly hefty price tag, but anything past 100 bucks, has no real chance on the market in most cases.

I say that, when I know, people have bemoaned paying anything past 40-50 bucks for any new software as a rule.



Fred98 -> (5/12/2003 6:44:37 AM)

Rise and Decline of the Third Reich (“TR”) was a great game. I have never played ATR

For me there were 2 things that made the game great:

1. Either side felt they could achieve the victory conditions right up to the end of the game

2. You have the same choices as the historical commanders together with the same consequences if you make a bad decision. But you are not forced to make a different decision.

These points ought to be standard in all war games.

Les commented on the companion game – Rising Sun. It seems to me that both games use the same rules and same game mechanics. But the naval and air warfare aspects were very abstracted – and that’s probably why it didn’t work so well.

Hence my dream to combine the game with UV.

In computing terms we would say that A3R and RS use the same “game engine”. So if there were a computer version of A3R it would be no big deal to make a computer version of Rising Sun.

However, both games would need to have some changes to take advantage of computers. Else it would be tedious. The problem is that changes might ruin the game.

But I agree with Raverdave – a UV in the Med would be great. And such a game would need to have ground combat in Syria, Greece, Crete and North Africa. Which means the ground combat routines of UV would need to be changed.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/12/2003 7:26:05 AM)

To give you the insight Joe, A3R was basically TR with a much cleaned up look, but essentially the same game.

Like comparing Squad Leader at the GI Anvil of Victory point where it converted to ASL. Yes some changes, even some big ones, but the game was more or less the same.

Big change in the game was the Diplomacy manual add on. In A3R you have a more involved capacity to influence the game through planned diplomatic actions. It really improves the game.

Rising Sun was of course Pacific centered, and the naval game was a bit different. They also introduced the Research Manual to the game experience. A nice thing, is the Research manual is able to be incorporated into A3R.

A World at War seeks to smooth the edges separating the two. It will be a unique game no doubt. Both games will logically have been forced to conform to the new whole. Wish I had 175 bucks handy.

It is possibly hard to justify making a UV Europe game in some ways. It might be best to use lessons learned with UV and start a global game from scratch using what works and adding new material as well.

I would not want UV to walk the road World at War walked (it was not always a happy experience as much as I know of it).



Kobe for Prez -> (5/14/2003 3:36:06 AM)

I hope a UV Med is a real option and not just wishful thinking. UV might be transferable on a limited scale into the Norwegian Theater since it was a largely naval/amphibious war with some land air supporting. Any thought?



Raverdave -> (5/14/2003 4:56:59 AM)

Yup, UV Med IS a real option, but it will not see the light of day until WiTP is released.



Mr.Frag -> (5/24/2003 10:43:16 PM)

I can just imagine a UV World!

Start scrolling the map to get where you want, walk outside for a smoke, come back in, still scrolling, go make more coffee, come back, still scrolling, wife nags to do the chores, not a problem, it will still be scrolling when you get back :D

The problem on the land front really comes down to what was seen quite nicely in Close Combat. You really can't abstract a mile Hex and call it a terrain type x. Smaller scale games (excusing CC's terminal armor pathing problems) do a excellent job with this. Somehow I feel we loose something in the translation of scale that really leaves one lacking. Anyone remember Patriot? Thats what I want to see. Had Patriot & Harpoon 2 been merged successfully, we would have had the best engine there ever was at a real time level.

Now, to do a world wide level this tactical is not possible, so you need to step completely back and decide at what level control will be held by the player.

Then you have to realistically set turn lengths between control points. ie: how often is a 5 star going to get reports back for theater commanders to adjust his overall plan? How much micromanagement is he going to do to his 2 stars? Does the workload at the selected level present a problem beyond which a normal person can cope? Can automation help manage this workload? Do we need to rethink this control level and length to deal with workload if it is too light or too much?

Once you go through all those and figure out just how much abuse a single person can take, then and only then can you think about a scope and what features can be added for *fun* purposes. Then you have to rethink it, did the 8fun* factor cause a shift beyond *fun* into frustration due to workload increase? Do we have to rethink scale again ...

Quite the amount of planned before you write a single line of code to take this one on... ATR was nice in that they cut the turn level into quarter years to manage the workload. It was still a lot of work at times even then. Can you simply imagine UV at the global level with 1 day turns??? You'd go NUTS!

I think they have a challenge to deliver even at the WitP level. It may not do very well simply due to the turn length. UV's at a level where folks can at least get in a few turns a day, WitP may shift it to where most folks will be working a turn every OTHER day. That means your 800 odd turn game is going to take over 5 YEARS of your life to play. Realistically, I really hope the AI is up to par in WitP as I really doubt many PBEM games will last at that level of abuse.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/24/2003 11:55:08 PM)

The customer is always right yadda yadda yadda.

If they make it and it sells, it's called a success yadda yadda yadda.

Accuracy is not as important as fun yadda yadda yadda.

Trouble is, those are similar to the three demons of tank design eh.

Do you give them what the saaaaay they want?
Do you make it, and decide after X sales, "you were obviously right"?
At what point is accuracy to intrusive?

On the table for examination we have
Axis and Allies PC
Strategic Command
Hearts of Iron
Uncommon Valour
Master of Orion 3
The Operational Art of War series

All of these games are basically strategy more than anything else. UV and TOAW might be theatre specific and mainly military action sans diplomacy and research economics, but I think we can agree they are of a planning level that separates them from tactical sufficiently.

Axis and Allies. Fun game, fun rules here. Forget accuracy issues, and just have fun with it. Oh but play it only against humans.

Strategic Command. Fun due to simple design. AI is not totally moronic, but veteran players can beat it easily. Accurate, but well open to what if extremes. You need to get inside the actual design if you expect to be good. That means repeated playings, and learning what works and what doesn't. You need to master research, or your battlefield savvy ain't going to be enough.

Hearts of Iron. Fun so a few insist. Bugs yeah it has plenty, to damned many in fact. But it's late in the game, and if you buy this and don't patch it, you asked for it. RTS mode means get used to playing the AI whether you like it or not. RTS in grand strategy means stop wasting your time on accuracy issues as if it matters. You won't be able to be everywhere all the time anyways. Ludicrous results? well remember you are playing an RTS grand strategy game, did you expect something else. Hope you enjoy playing silly games like Portugal takes over the world.

Uncommon Valour, get ready for planning, no planning no success. Its a naval game basically, that means thinking.

TOAW basically the same as UV, it's in the planning, everything else is just details. Of course if you can't handle detail, you have the wrong game.

MOO3 detail with a capital D. Everything HoI might have been if it had turns. Basically the ultimate geo political, economical research, global and interstellar, grand strategy, race vs race game in my opinion.
My friend has the game, looks like I will be taking it home with me though. This is the most detailed game I have seen yet. It doesn't likely get more detailed. If detail makes you drool, this game will require a bib. My friend is more into fun first though heheh (currently appears addicted to his new Planetside game).

What makes a game a "great" game, is in how well it delivers what it delivers to those that actually want it.
I think HoI was a dismal let down to even those that like that sort of game. It is still apparently in need of patching 6 months after release.

MOO3 appears fine right out of the box.

TOAW still sells even after several years.

I think SC2 will be recieved with rave reviews. The base game is a well liked game.

UV is good, I will likely prefer the all encompassing WitPacific myself.

I have heard them say they are making A&A into an RTS version. Talk about a stupid idea. But I do expect plenty of people to line up to play it all the same. I just won't be one of them.

I have yet to see a good effort done, for a global game at the Strategic Command level of sophistification. I am not expecting to see it soon. It won't be done well, until the fascination with RTS is dealt with.



BrubakerII -> (5/26/2003 6:26:51 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]The people producing the global capable World at War game (its the A3R-Rising Sun combination design) are asking 175 bucks for it. When I saw that, I almost had heart failure hehe.[/B][/QUOTE]

Les can you please tell me the title or even better post a link to this game please?

Thanks in advance.

Brubaker



Fred98 -> (5/26/2003 8:12:33 PM)

Brubaker, its a board game.

When I win the lottery and retire I'll hire a shed and some servents and play you.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/26/2003 10:44:48 PM)

Anyone that disagrees can of course basically get stuffed :) and as I am obviously the undisputed champion of the turn based game, I am in a position to know hehe.

But this game is likely the pinnacle of the global grand strategy wargame as it currently stands for board gaming.

http://www.aworldatwar.com/

But remember it's a board game, so no you won't be playing against an AI, and any online opportunities will be limited to such options as may exist through programs like Warplanner.

But ouch 175 bucks!! Ohh well at least the Canadian dollar is on the rise, and it might not hurt as much as it would have when I first encountered the site.



Mr.Frag -> (5/27/2003 3:37:34 AM)

Having played ATR more then a few times, I have to wonder about the size of the box this puppy comes in with all the counters and maps and tables and manuals.

I can somewhat understand the price although it would be really nice if someone computerized the whole thing to get rid of the box so you could just print out the maps in 6-12 sectionals each quarter year to plan your move. Would be great from a PBEM standpoint too, with everything already stored in the computer to flip off the email. Being able to scratch up the printed map with your strategy notes so you remembered your plans from last turn is extremely helpful, especially in PBEM games that do not have extremely quick turnaround times.

I'm too old to be crawling around on the floor (cause they don't make tables that big) and moving little cardboard counters around.

There is one aspect to wargaming that you really need to take into account. Space! Anyone who ever played AH's Jutland at full scale knows what I mean. :eek:

Sad to say, but thats one I won't be putting on the shopping list. Too bad no one ever took the TR computer game to the next level as TR was just a training game for ATR which sounds like a training game for this puppy.



pasternakski -> (5/27/2003 4:55:31 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]Having played ATR more then a few times, I have to wonder about the size of the box this puppy comes in with all the counters and maps and tables and manuals.[/B]

There have been so many board game permutations of strategic WWII, I don't even pay any attention to them anymore.

[B]I'm too old to be crawling around on the floor (cause they don't make tables that big) and moving little cardboard counters around.[/B]

"Too old to rock and roll, too young to die."

[B]There is one aspect to wargaming that you really need to take into account. Space! Anyone who ever played AH's Jutland at full scale knows what I mean. :eek:[/B]

Yeah, but it was so much FUN to lay out your move with those 3 foot long maneuver gauges and 4 1/2 foot long range finders. Pity that the game was "Igo-yougo." The Germans could always sidle their destroyers up dangerously close to the British battle line for a torpedo attack, and all the British could do was turn 90 degrees away to avoid as many torps as possible, while the German capital ships had a chance to move after the British light ships had done so. C'est la cardboard guerre.

[B]Sad to say, but thats one I won't be putting on the shopping list. Too bad no one ever took the TR computer game to the next level as TR was just a training game for ATR which sounds like a training game for this puppy. [/B][/QUOTE]

$175? Shoot, you could have yerself a pretty good weekend in Vegas on that. Yes, I sure wish that someone would pick up the 3R computer game ball and run with it ... Matrix 2by3, maybe?



PeckingFury -> (5/28/2003 11:31:01 AM)

Yeah they can make it like HoI ...one sec please...



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