Airgroup upgrade quiz (Full Version)

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GetAssista -> Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/17/2017 8:05:17 PM)

So, we all went through upgrading our airgroups and the frustration of meeting the necessary conditions on the base. As well as went through threads on the forum by other players questioning why cannot their airgroups upgrade? Probably listed all those conditions in an answer (mishmash of base size, HQs, supplies, enough planes)

My turn to ask this very question :) But bear with me, I believe it is on the more interesting side. I have a carrier TF sitting in port with two Wildcat groups, and only one of those is able to upgrade. Full compartment of planes in pools, identical conditions on base by definition, section 16.2 of the manual perused twise. I'm at a loss. Can there be other factors?

For the record: moved all to to Yorktown, changed commander for non-upgrading AG to the best possible (better than that in the upgrading group in air and admin), filled in pilots. Now those 2 airgroups are practically identical to each other. Still, only one is eligible for upgrade[:)]

[image]local://upfiles/32892/36059BCB746B4C63BE3E5A81CE9523AB.jpg[/image]



Leandros -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/17/2017 9:14:01 PM)


The Saratoga group is "F4F-3A's".....?

Fred



Reg -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 2:27:22 AM)


Question: Did VF-42 upgrade to the F4F-3A (from F3F-3) recently??




Chris21wen -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 7:38:43 AM)

The 3A upgrades to the 3, the 3 to the 4. The upgrade button shows the default upgrade path unless you change it. To do so click the button and it will list all available future aircraft upgrades for that group.



GetAssista -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 7:51:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros
The Saratoga group is "F4F-3A's".....?
Fred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg
Question: Did VF-42 upgrade to the F4F-3A (from F3F-3) recently??

Buffaloes are long gone. Upgrade is not affected by the 7 day period between new replacements. I can upgrade the other group to F4F-4, then the very next day upgrade it to something else. To be on a completely safe side I flipped several turns, and it did not change anyting WRT upgrade status. CVs currently entered Soviet Petropavlovsk (activated by Ironman AI from start) after guarding Adak takeover. It is currently late April 42, F4F-3A is long out of production in this scenario, so I had no possibility to take any replacements lately.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H
The 3A upgrades to the 3, the 3 to the 4. The upgrade button shows the default upgrade path unless you change it. To do so click the button and it will list all available future aircraft upgrades for that group.

I think it matters only when you determine the next upgrade, if you are able to select it or not. As you can see, I already have successfully set F4F-4 for both groups. As long as it is set as next upgrade, it should be able to upgrade given conditions in base are satisfied. PDU is ON.
Edit: I freed up some F4F-3s, and surely, setting upgrade path for F4F-3A to F4F-3 does not help.



Leandros -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 8:13:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

The 3A upgrades to the 3, the 3 to the 4. The upgrade button shows the default upgrade path unless you change it. To do so click the button and it will list all available future aircraft upgrades for that group.

In RL I believe the 3A was a development of the "3" - if not any better.

Fred



geofflambert -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 10:18:26 AM)

I don't have a specific useful contribution but in general, I would say a squadron that does not readily upgrade to something you might like should perhaps be looked upon as a training squadron and if that is the case, do not by any means fill out it's complement of planes, regardless of type or species. Roughly and without regard to the side you are playing, a minimum of half the squadrons you have should be doing nothing but training. If that is not the case with you you need to start moving in that direction and fast.



geofflambert -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 10:27:59 AM)

I'm sorry, I did not mean to say you or anyone else reading my post needed to lose weight or diet for any other reason. I'm just saying half your air effort should be in training and you should be pretty particular about the type of training for each air crew and of what sort.



Lowpe -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 3:21:51 PM)

Thach knows how to work the system, Pederson not so much - he is always late getting the requistion forms in.[;)]



BBfanboy -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 4:33:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

The 3A upgrades to the 3, the 3 to the 4. The upgrade button shows the default upgrade path unless you change it. To do so click the button and it will list all available future aircraft upgrades for that group.

In RL I believe the 3A was a development of the "3" - if not any better.

Fred


The Wildkitten 3a was given a camera, presumably conceived as a dual recon/fighter craft. The extra weight of the camera made it a dog as a fighter. Splitting the 3a squadron into chunks with 2 or three aircraft and spreading them around various places might make some sense, but keeping them on a CV is a waste of one of the 5 squadron slots you are limited to. IIRC, it costs beaucoup PP to upgrade them to F4F-4.



GetAssista -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 5:15:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros
In RL I believe the 3A was a development of the "3" - if not any better.
Fred

The Wildkitten 3a was given a camera, presumably conceived as a dual recon/fighter craft. The extra weight of the camera made it a dog as a fighter. Splitting the 3a squadron into chunks with 2 or three aircraft and spreading them around various places might make some sense, but keeping them on a CV is a waste of one of the 5 squadron slots you are limited to. IIRC, it costs beaucoup PP to upgrade them to F4F-4.

In Andy's Ironman scenario Wildcat 3A is a pure fighter with no dongles, while Wildcat 3P is a fighter with a camera and same stats as Wildcat 3. Cannot use the camera of course, being a fighter.
Anyway, I did not pay PPs when upgrading Sara's Buffaloes, and it should not matter for further upgrade eligibility as long as F4F-4 is selectable in the queue



BillBrown -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 5:36:41 PM)

The only question I have, was the TF docked when you tried to upgrade VF-42?



Alfred -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 5:49:07 PM)

Even after Soviet activation non Soviet assets should never be moved to a Soviet base.  There are very severe restrictions which apply to them.

The upgrades cannot be paid for by a Soviet base.  Only a non Soviet base can pay for them.  The different aircraft models have different air ranges.  I assume you have a qualified non Soviet air base within range of VF-3 but none are within range of VF-42.

Alfred 



GetAssista -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 6:24:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Even after Soviet activation non Soviet assets should never be moved to a Soviet base.  There are very severe restrictions which apply to them.

The upgrades cannot be paid for by a Soviet base.  Only a non Soviet base can pay for them.  The different aircraft models have different air ranges.  I assume you have a qualified non Soviet air base within range of VF-3 but none are within range of VF-42.

Alfred 

Almost a winner of the quiz here, as expected! [:)]
I'm certain this is the right direction. But not 100% within the manual yet. F4F-3A is shortlegged (transfer range 15) compared to F4F-3 (18). The closest Allied base and the only one in the vicinity is Attu at level 3 airfield with range 5 HQa and loads of supplies. But this base is exactly 15 hexes from Petropavlovsk and hence within transfer range for both 3A and 3. Also, F4F-4 has transfer range of 16 so should've covered either upgrade, as all partially relevant bullets in the manual state that either plane's range is enough.
quote:

*The air unit is located at a base and the HQ that the group is assigned
to is within transfer range of the air unit’s current or upgrading
aircraft type and the HQ is located at a base with an airfield size of
7+ and has over 20,000 supplies. Supplies will be expended at the
HQ base and the unit will receive damaged planes from the pool.
*The air unit is located at a base and the Command level HQ that the
group is assigned to is within transfer range of the air unit’s current
or upgrading aircraft type and the Command HQ is located at a base
with over 20,000 supplies. Supplies will be expended at the HQ
base and the unit will receive damaged planes from the pool.


Edit: hehe.. I can transfer F4F-3A to Attu from TF at Petropavlovsk, but still cannot upgrade them there



Alfred -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 6:53:17 PM)

Carrier located air groups have a slightly different (and more restricted) criteria to meet.

Basically it should not be possible to upgrade anything at the Soviet base.  But because of the special situation involving the Soviets I suspect the code has unintentionally left open a hook back to non carrier located air group upgrades.  If that is correct then it brings into play relevant criteria such as runway damage at the "qualifying" non Soviet base.  Even the amount of sorties left (as a substitute for aviation support) could be caught in the unintended hook.

As to Attu it doesn't really qualify.  It has a HQa which doesn't really improve its AF size.  Also the air units are "independent" so they don't really get associated with the HQa.

Alfred 



GetAssista -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 7:19:43 PM)

Ok, thanks, Alfred!

I'm ok with the possiblity to upgrade some USA airgroups being some Soviet pecularity. Not really important to dig into because hardly anyone would stumble upon one in a regular game.

Speaking of Soviets and plane upgrades, there is one more pecularity: I can upgrade US Army airgroups in Petropavlovsk (unloaded from AKVs) but I can't see what base pays for this. There are very few bases in the range (Petro itself, Attu and Adak) and neither has any changes in supply.
Oh, and US airgroups can operate from Soviet airfields perfectly fine as long as you ship them there.



Alfred -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/18/2017 7:45:21 PM)

Hmn, seems like something is not quite WAD.

Check up on the patch notes for patch #7 (the last official released patch).  Following some issues raised in the Tech subform michaelm did some tweaking to ensure the design philosophy applied in limiting non Soviet operations from Soviet territory.  Some of the intended restrictions are:

1.  Non Soviet air units can't be transferred in.
2.  Non Soviet LCUs can be transferred in via ship or air lift but then can't move out of the Soviet base.

You seem to be experiencing a logic hiccup in that you bypassed #1 by sea lift (the air unit is "troop" for sea lift purposes) in a particular manner viz via CV and not the usual transport TF mode.

Issues often arise with Soviet territory precisely because so few games ever see Soviet activation before August 1945.  It seems that just about every time there is an early Soviet activation, some hole in the code is exposed.

Alfred



Lowpe -> RE: Airgroup upgrade quiz (6/19/2017 6:40:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Issues often arise with Soviet territory precisely because so few games ever see Soviet activation before August 1945.  It seems that just about every time there is an early Soviet activation, some hole in the code is exposed.

Alfred


Uh-oh. I guess the trick is then to convert it Japanese ownership ASAP.[;)]



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