Port Damage (Full Version)

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Beria -> Port Damage (6/20/2017 4:17:18 PM)

How does damage affect ports?

My guess from the manual is that if the port has more than 50% damage, or if it passes a die roll if damage is between 1% and 49%, in effect it is like there was no port there?

This means no units can be transported in or out by sea, and it cannot act as a supply source?

If as Axis I take a port which leaves a group of Soviet units isolated or in beachhead supply what happens if they recapture the port the following turn? Do the units remain isolated because the damage to the port is high, or can it be used as a supply source because they are retaking their own port?



thedude357 -> RE: Port Damage (6/20/2017 4:33:24 PM)

You have to knock the port to below level 1 from what I remember reading to stop its usage entirely. It depends on the port level. Other than that I don't think it has any effect?

Port level 1 = any dmg would shut it down.
Port Level 2 = 51% dmg would shut it down.
Port Level 3 = 67% dmg would shut it down.
Port Level 4 = 76% dmg would shut it down.
Port Level 5 = 81% dmg would shut it down.

Dont even bother with Sevastopol.

It takes many...many turns normally of level bombing. I was able to isolate northern Leningrad area by bombing ports on Lake Lagoda one time, mainly by bombing the one slightly northeast of Leningrad.

Someone Correct me if I am wrong.



Beria -> RE: Port Damage (6/20/2017 5:03:08 PM)

Ah thank you so much thedude357!

I was looking at Odessa which from looking at the details I guess is Port Level 15 - is that correct? Or if not where do I find the level of the port? What do you mean by knocking down the port level - is that different from increasing damage?

In my case it is a question of capturing and recapturing a port. The damage is 99% after I captured it from the Soviets - will it remain at close to 99% for the Soviets if they recapture it. And at that level will it be unavailable as a supply source? I guess from what you are saying yes Odessa will be a Soviet supply head for previously isolated units as it cannot be shut down by damage?



thedude357 -> RE: Port Damage (6/20/2017 6:29:34 PM)

It can shut down by damage, but I think I was misreading your post as to bombing. Sevastopol is port level 15 I think, it just requires high dmg to be inoperable. I think above 96%. If Soviets re-capture a port, it will remain at 99% dmg, and then continue to repair at 3% a turn thereafter from what I recall.



gmtello -> RE: Port Damage (6/20/2017 6:46:25 PM)

Sevastopol needs 96 per cent damage to close



VigaBrand -> RE: Port Damage (8/11/2018 10:51:37 AM)

What need a port level 10 to be shut down? (Ochako in the South)



morvael -> RE: Port Damage (8/11/2018 11:12:35 AM)

91+?



Seminole -> RE: Port Damage (8/2/2019 12:39:06 AM)

Do I understand correctly that an ice choked port like Oranienbaum will function as a supply source (Axis or Soviet) even if there is no naval or amphib movement allowed from the hex?



xhoel -> RE: Port Damage (8/2/2019 12:56:23 AM)

How can Oranienbaum be ice choked? If you wanna go into detail you can PM me and I'll try to help. I have been dealing a bit with ports lately.



Seminole -> RE: Port Damage (8/2/2019 5:00:36 AM)

I just submitted my turn or I'd show with a screenshot, but I'm referring to the ice graphic spreading over the Baltic from Leningrad during the winter.
I find reference to ice on Lake Ladoga, and how it affects supply, but not what is happening when ice moves over the Baltic ports.
For some reason I couldn't engage in naval or amphib movement from Leningrad, I assumed because the port was iced over.
In my case I had cut the Axis railroad crossing the Narva, but noticed the distance to railhead for the Germans laying siege to Leningrad was far too short. I realized that railhead was being counted from the port!
I think my only option is destroying the port.
Not sure how to optimize air attacks to this end. Much better with the WitW air war engine.



Seminole -> RE: Port Damage (8/2/2019 5:23:43 AM)

Found a turn 25 screenshot that includes the weather overlay (I usually turn it off in blizzard for terrain clarity).

[image]https://i.imgur.com/TyVYvMO.png[/image]



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Port Damage (8/2/2019 8:30:02 AM)

AFAIK it blocks unit movement but not supply.



xhoel -> RE: Port Damage (8/2/2019 10:00:37 AM)

@Seminole: The problem lies somewhere else. From the manual, section 22.1.1.1 Ice Levels and Movement Costs: it states that: "movement and supply trace over full water hexes is not affected by ice levels" and "strategic naval transport or amphibious transport is not affected by ice levels."

You cannot conduct naval transport from Leningrad because you have no friendly ports in the Baltic. Naval Transport requires you to have a receiving friendly port. You cannot conduct amphibious transport because the Soviet do not have Amphibious operation capabilities in the Baltic, this is reserved only for the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov. See manual section 14.2.3.2 Naval Transport and Amphibious Capacity for more clarity on the matter.

Don't even bother with air attacks. Oranienbaum is a level 5 port IIRC, it needs 81% damage to get shut down. The war will be over by the time you reach that kind of damage level.

Cheers!



Telemecus -> RE: Port Damage (8/2/2019 11:44:35 AM)

My reading of Seminole is that he gave the picture above to show what the iced sea looks like, but while it is quite right there they have no other port they are refering to another turn in a game when they do?

Without knowing why but I certainly find as Axis you can transport units from Talinn to Leningrad say when there is no ice blocking Leningrad. But when there is ice on the way to Leningrad you can no longer transport by sea units from Talinn to Leningrad?



Seminole -> RE: Port Damage (8/2/2019 8:29:54 PM)

quote:

You cannot conduct amphibious transport because the Soviet do not have Amphibious operation capabilities in the Baltic, this is reserved only for the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov. See manual section 14.2.3.2 Naval Transport and Amphibious Capacity for more clarity on the matter.


Are you sure about that? The interface indicates there are valid landing spots from the Leningrad port:

[image]https://i.imgur.com/hzwp8dn.png[/image]

When I try from Sevastopol I see the movement chain across the water, but if I try from an icebound port in the south the interface matches what I'm seeing in Leningrad.

It appears that the ice does block movement (naval and amphib), but not port supply.
Seems like a bug, or possibly just an oversight.

quote:

Don't even bother with air attacks. Oranienbaum is a level 5 port IIRC, it needs 81% damage to get shut down. The war will be over by the time you reach that kind of damage level.


That kind of defeatism may find its cure in re-education camp, comrade!
Imagine I wasn't so pessimistic and had found a way to get the port damage to 99%.
What's the best method for the Red Air Force to maintain the sufficient level of damage to not allow the port to re-open?
My understanding is that it repairs 3% per turn and 10% prior to the logistics phase, so I need to keep up ~13% damage per turn to keep it from becoming operational.
How best to achieve that?



Telemecus -> RE: Port Damage (8/2/2019 8:34:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
My understanding is that it repairs 3% per turn and 10% prior to the logistics phase, so I need to keep up ~13% damage per turn to keep it from becoming operational.
How best to achieve that?


Port repairs 3% per whole turn - 3% during logistics and at no other phase. So if you increase damage by more than 3% per turn with bombing you will be gaining on the 3% repair every turn.



Telemecus -> RE: Port Damage (8/2/2019 8:37:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

You cannot conduct amphibious transport because the Soviet do not have Amphibious operation capabilities in the Baltic, this is reserved only for the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov. See manual section 14.2.3.2 Naval Transport and Amphibious Capacity for more clarity on the matter.


Are you sure about that? The interface indicates there are valid landing spots from the Leningrad port:


Hover in a sea hex to find your sea capacities - in Black sea you should have both transport and amphibious capacities. But in seas other than Black sea while you will see some transport capacity the amphibious is set to zero. Even though you have places to land - you have no amphibious capacity to land there.



Seminole -> RE: Port Damage (8/2/2019 9:03:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Port repairs 3% per whole turn - 3% during logistics and at no other phase. So if you increase damage by more than 3% per turn with bombing you will be gaining on the 3% repair every turn.


I'm confused by this part:

20.4.1.2

"If the effective port value is reduced to less than one due to damage, then supplies may not be sent through that port. However, the port damage is reduced by 10% before the supply phase and only the smallest ports would have a value less than one after the 10% reduction in damage."



Telemecus -> RE: Port Damage (8/2/2019 9:23:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Port repairs 3% per whole turn - 3% during logistics and at no other phase. So if you increase damage by more than 3% per turn with bombing you will be gaining on the 3% repair every turn.


I'm confused by this part:

20.4.1.2

"If the effective port value is reduced to less than one due to damage, then supplies may not be sent through that port. However, the port damage is reduced by 10% before the supply phase and only the smallest ports would have a value less than one after the 10% reduction in damage."


Here they are not talking about how ports repair but the thresholds for supply. Perhaps adding the word "if" to the sentence would make it clearer? Perhaps it should be "However IF port damage is reduced TO 10% before the supply phase..."

I am not too sure about the conditions for supply in ports always, but absolutely sure they only repair 3% per turn/

Perhaps an amendment suggestion that should be posted in the amended manual?



xhoel -> RE: Port Damage (8/3/2019 4:27:37 AM)

quote:

Are you sure about that? The interface indicates there are valid landing spots from the Leningrad port:


Yes, I am sure about that, because you don't have amphibious capabilities.

quote:

It appears that the ice does block movement (naval and amphib), but not port supply. Seems like a bug, or possibly just an oversight.


I would have assumed that was not the case, at least according to the manual. But if your tests show that this is the case, then I am sure this is a bug and you should report it to the devs.

quote:

That kind of defeatism may find its cure in re-education camp, comrade! Imagine I wasn't so pessimistic and had found a way to get the port damage to 99%.


There is a big difference between being a realist and a defeatist. Unless you have a magic trick up your sleeve, you can forget about that. And while we are on the matter, what are you hoping to achieve with this move? You won't isolate the Germans, unless they have no other rail lines in the vicinity and their railhead is way further south.

Once you see how little damage strat. bombing inflicts on a target the defeatism will set in [;)]

quote:

What's the best method for the Red Air Force to maintain the sufficient level of damage to not allow the port to re-open?
My understanding is that it repairs 3% per turn and 10% prior to the logistics phase, so I need to keep up ~13% damage per turn to keep it from becoming operational.


I don't know where you got the numbers from. Ports repair at 3% a turn. As long as you keep the damage over 3%/turn you will be making progress (albeit very very slow progress). However considering that you can only conduct 2 air attacks on a hex and considering that air groups are terrible at damaging ports (strat. bombing has been nerfed IIRC), you will at best see damage at 5% per turn. After repairs that will drop to 2%. To reach 81% damage you will need around 40 turns or around 10 months.

WitE is very different to WitW in terms of strat. bombing. In WitW you can damage a port to 80%+ in a turn, in WitE that is impossible. With that being said, Tele can give you more tips on the bombing of ports. I personally would advise you against it.

Cheers!








Telemecus -> RE: Port Damage (8/3/2019 10:19:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Tele can give you more tips on the bombing of ports. I personally would advise you against it.


Unfortunately the experience I have is before the latest patches which enhanced flak so much and also made night bombing effectively worthless. This might be reversed partially in v1.12 or after. And I feel that with more research it could still be a viable strategy. Also an appraisal of the benefits might still make this worthwhile anyway - for example if cutting off Leningrad by the ports would make the difference to capturing the city, which would make the difference to winning the war, then any cost in lost bombers no matter how high would make it worthwhile?

However some tips if useful are
i) Choose lower level ports if possible as they need less damage to stop working, and the same number of bombers in a mission create higher damage levels each time.
ii) Avoid ports with flak (e.g cities), and use recon to find flight paths that minimise flak
iii) Use fighters sweeps (or as Axis even recon spam) to degrade the performance of fighters and flak in the area, or even leave the area without fighter cover at all. Consider attacks on the enemy air or using up their air force in escorting ground suppport before attacking their ports. Do this first and then afterwards when you bomb the ports fewer of your bombers will be disrupted from delivering their payload.
iv) Manually optimise the bomber force for each attack - you can chose a maximum of 14 bomber groups which should be the ones with the most ready aircraft, with the largest payloads, the least fatigue and most morale/experience. You should be able to get about 300 bombers to actually conduct the mission with this approach as Axis. A good air leader can even mean regularly more than 300.



Seminole -> RE: Port Damage (8/3/2019 6:11:22 PM)

quote:

There is a big difference between being a realist and a defeatist. Unless you have a magic trick up your sleeve, you can forget about that. And while we are on the matter, what are you hoping to achieve with this move? You won't isolate the Germans, unless they have no other rail lines in the vicinity and their railhead is way further south.

Once you see how little damage strat. bombing inflicts on a target the defeatism will set in [;)]


[image]https://media1.tenor.com/images/1ce17f41a446bbd0ef57c35a004c3444/tenor.gif[/image]


I don’t have magic, but I do have paratroopers.
The Germans in the Leningrad salient would already be isolated if not for this port working as a supply source while iced in, but I’ll go over that in detail in the AAR.
I noticed the supply situation because I had severed the rail before the Narva river and noticed the Germans besieging Leningrad where still showing only a few hexes distant from railhead (the port). This altered my plans.
Having damaged the port to 99 I want to keep it unusable so that in time the Leningrad salient is isolated.
My window however is closing fast.
Since the port in question is level 5 and we’ve confirmed repairs are only 3% per turn my Red Air Force question is moot to my situation.



xhoel -> RE: Port Damage (8/5/2019 3:41:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I don’t have magic, but I do have paratroopers.



Well that makes a lot more sense. I'd like to see paratroopers be used more. It is a shame that they are almost never used in coordinated offensives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
The Germans in the Leningrad salient would already be isolated if not for this port working as a supply source while iced in, but I’ll go over that in detail in the AAR.
I noticed the supply situation because I had severed the rail before the Narva river and noticed the Germans besieging Leningrad where still showing only a few hexes distant from railhead (the port). This altered my plans.
Having damaged the port to 99 I want to keep it unusable so that in time the Leningrad salient is isolated.
My window however is closing fast.


Ahh ok now I see. I thought the Germans had use the Pskov rail to send supply to the north. But this isn't the case apparently. Well I hope you figure it out and lift the siege.



Fanstar1 -> RE: Port Damage (8/6/2019 7:40:51 AM)

[image]https://i.postimg.cc/v8C8r38L/Screenshot-234.png[/image]
It seems to me that Osinovets has only a level 3 port.



Telemecus -> RE: Port Damage (8/6/2019 9:56:44 AM)

I know I have been guilty in the past of saying it is a level 4 port - and having to correct myself a few times that it is a level 3 port. I do not know why I keep thinking of it as a level 4 port - perhaps it was so in an earlier version. But yes indeed Osinovets is a level 3 port and so only needs 67% to shut down! The ports on the east coast of Ladoga are level 2 and so only need 51% damage to shut down.



Crackaces -> RE: Port Damage (8/9/2019 4:51:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I know I have been guilty in the past of saying it is a level 4 port - and having to correct myself a few times that it is a level 3 port. I do not know why I keep thinking of it as a level 4 port - perhaps it was so in an earlier version. But yes indeed Osinovets is a level 3 port and so only needs 67% to shut down! The ports on the east coast of Ladoga are level 2 and so only need 51% damage to shut down.


and remember ... a level 3 port (Osinovets) takes 70% at the end of the German turn, that will repair to 67% during the Soviet logistics phase .. 67% at the end of the German turn will be 64% during the Soviet turn .. not quite enough to exceed the threshold ..



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