Awful lot of Russians!

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Yogi the Great -> Awful lot of Russians! (7/16/2017 6:42:10 PM)
Having fun with the game but also having the usual failure of German ability to make it. Of course my own failure may be part of the problem.[;)] My first time through and although I surrounded and destroyed a fair number of Russian units in the first few turns, here I am only at the end of July and there are already so many Russian units in including very strong stacks and armor that a German success seems very unlikely. Yes I know a little about history, and I know the Russians came in large numbers, it just seems that this many in July 41 is a bit much. Oh well, fun game. The decision part of it is an interesting and challenging art of the game but a player (at least a new one to the game) has to struggle with that as well. The game comes highly recommended and I will add mine to that. I have to admit however that if the future means the Russian Hordes will make it almost impossible for a German win I may have to switch and play the Russian side. Makes me wonder why I have bought so many Russian front games? [:D]

zakblood -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/16/2017 7:25:54 PM)
we all buy them, but winning one of them is another totally different thing altogether [;)]

wodin -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/17/2017 12:29:16 PM)
Love this game says a lot as it's not my scale... I too find it seems abit to difficult for the Germans at the start. I feel that lack of command, shock and overall disarray isn't modelled enough with regards to the Russians. It also seems they start to retreat to well, more like it's '42 than '41. quote: ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great Having fun with the game but also having the usual failure of German ability to make it. Of course my own failure may be part of the problem.[;)] My first time through and although I surrounded and destroyed a fair number of Russian units in the first few turns, here I am only at the end of July and there are already so many Russian units in including very strong stacks and armor that a German success seems very unlikely. Yes I know a little about history, and I know the Russians came in large numbers, it just seems that this many in July 41 is a bit much. Oh well, fun game. The decision part of it is an interesting and challenging art of the game but a player (at least a new one to the game) has to struggle with that as well. The game comes highly recommended and I will add mine to that. I have to admit however that if the future means the Russian Hordes will make it almost impossible for a German win I may have to switch and play the Russian side. Makes me wonder why I have bought so many Russian front games? [:D]

RandomAttack -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/20/2017 4:30:15 PM)
It seems the devs did this largely to prevent the Germans from steamrolling the Soviets after a big breakthrough in early days. Can certainly make an argument (I have [:)]) about it being "ahistorical", but it seems to be an intentional design decision to balance overall gameplay. Still, love the game and have made a few minor mods to suit my needs.

wodin -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/20/2017 6:00:19 PM)
Would have liked to be able to have a choice if that is so..

ernieschwitz -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/21/2017 3:22:05 AM)
Lots of stuff is ahistorical in games like these. It seems mostly people like to choose what those things are. For instance, knowing exactly where a unit is, and moving it with precision, is probably not one of those things that is historical... in fact very unhistorical. I guess ahistorical is more a matter of what you think is most pleasing to the eye.

RandomAttack -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/22/2017 4:28:45 PM)
That's a nice generic/general statement, but ignores the context of this game. In a game with this title, you would expect to be able to at least somewhat duplicate what happened historically. It seems to me that there was a real balance problem in that if the early days were duplicated/allowed the Axis would just steamroll the mid-late game. Thus the introduction of "major garrisons" (in places that historically fell almost without a shot), etc. It looks like only a handful of elite players can duplicate the early success. I'm not sure why it couldn't have been handled by adding more reinforcements mid-game instead, but I get it, it's a design decision. It may well have been the only option given the game engine. Still like the game.

Yogi the Great -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/29/2017 1:39:13 PM)
quote: it's a design decision Probably, in my opinion a very poor design decision though. Too bad as it is a good game but this distracts from it a lot.

wodin -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/29/2017 7:49:32 PM)
Persoanlly I think as Germans to win you had to do aswell or better than they did historically and be facing the very same situation..rather than alter things to try and balance the game..or at least have the choice of that set up. It's the only issue I have with the game, everything else esp the gameplay features I can't praise enough. quote: ORIGINAL: RandomAttack That's a nice generic/general statement, but ignores the context of this game. In a game with this title, you would expect to be able to at least somewhat duplicate what happened historically. It seems to me that there was a real balance problem in that if the early days were duplicated/allowed the Axis would just steamroll the mid-late game. Thus the introduction of "major garrisons" (in places that historically fell almost without a shot), etc. It looks like only a handful of elite players can duplicate the early success. I'm not sure why it couldn't have been handled by adding more reinforcements mid-game instead, but I get it, it's a design decision. It may well have been the only option given the game engine. Still like the game.

lancer -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/29/2017 11:21:31 PM)
Hi, Replicating historical results is challenging. There were more factors at play than straight military match-ups. The problem with Barbarossa is the period immediately after the Battle of Smolensk. The Germans had exceeded all expectations and fully expected, in line with their pre-invasion plan, to have defeated the Red Army as an ongoing concern at this point. Game over. They had, in short, come to the end of their plan and were confused as to what to do next. Hitler spent the next five or six weeks flip flopping around until he evenutally figured out what to do - drive directly towards Moscow. To be fair to Adolf, the High Command was also split on a course of action and there were some serious logistical constraints hampering an immediate push onto Moscow. If the game was to reflect historical results it would have to enforce a similar period where the player's ability to take effective military action, eg. keep going straight for whatever objective they were aiming for, would be seriously constrained. Nobody would want that. Instead the early game is made a bit tougher than it may have been historically but offsetting this the Player isn't forced to spend 5/6 weeks with their finger up their bum wondering what to do next. Overall I'd score the game signficantly easier for Germans than it was at the time. That's a subjective opinion but it's based on the fact that the Germans can, and often do, succeed in the game. A top line German player will win more often than a Soviet one. It's not easy to do so but keep in mind that Germany was at the peak of it's powers when it invaded Russia and for all it's might and ability the best it could do was take ground. It didn't come close to destroying the Red Army, it's industrial capability or the rear area resistance or the will of it's people. Cheers, Cameron

wodin -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/30/2017 12:26:18 PM)
I understand, though I think I'd have preferred it if that part of the game was rejigged than the start..or found some sort of gameplay feature to restrict the Germans around them but still make sure they had something to do..maybe more staff liaison decisions etc etc

lancer -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/30/2017 9:57:09 PM)
Hi Wodin, Fair enough. It's not ideal but artifically holding the player back when they are building up a head of steam and are in sight of their objectives would generate a lot more unhappy people than currently. It's an issue with any wargame that recreates an historical battle. Whenever there are significant factors involved that go beyond the straight military match-ups on the ground, eg. pretty much every conflict that ever there was, you run into the same problem. You could easily recreate the circumstances on the day but you'd end up with a straightjacket game that has very little scope for any outcome other than the strictly historical one. If you loosen the paramters somewhat to gain a measure of replayability from a game you're going to have non-historical outcomes as part of the mix. As mentioned above, the parameters that you probably want to fiddle with are the ones that are the intangible ones, like Hitler's indecision at a critical moment in Barbarossa. It's a balancing act with no perfect answer. Cheers, Cameron

Yogi the Great -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/30/2017 10:20:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lancer Hi Wodin, Fair enough. It's not ideal but artifically holding the player back when they are building up a head of steam and are in sight of their objectives would generate a lot more unhappy people than currently. Cheers, Cameron You certainly may know better than I, but I disagree. This actually detracts from the game. What Hitler did or didn't think isn't really relevant. The wargamer often likes to see approximately the same situation (numbers, units, type etc.) and see if they can do better. This artificially takes those tactic opportunities away. This is certainly not the only game that has done this on the eastern front but I find it makes a player (myself at least) tire of the game quicker.

RandomAttack -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/31/2017 4:21:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lancer It's a balancing act with no perfect answer. Cheers, Cameron Ain't it the truth![:)] Personally, I appreciate your pretty extensive answers on WHY you chose the direction you did. While this isn't the easiest game to mod, I was able to tweak a couple of things that bugged me most, and this is easily my go-to Eastern Front game.

lancer -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/31/2017 9:49:54 PM)
Hi, None of this is black and white. There is a judgement call that is made to tweak the game in one direction or another. It's going to be contentious no matter which way I go. From a commerical point of view, it's a call that is going to go, all other things being equal, in the direction of offending the least number of people possible. This is a very small niche market and designing the game to deliberately constrain a player's freedom of action for a dozen turns in order to correctly model Hitler's indecision would only ensure that even fewer people bought the game. Making historical wargames isn't, sadly, the path to fame and fortune. If I take my designer's hat off for a moment, however, I can sympathise with your point of view. The reason you buy these type of games is for historical realism and anything that takes away from that is going to grate. Cheers, Cameron

75Pak -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (9/24/2017 2:53:30 AM)
In the playthroughs where I win I usually wind up having to destroy about 450 Soviet Divisions by the end of November. If I lose more than six to ten entire divisions I usually cannot win. In the playthroughs where I win I seldom lose more than four entire divisions. I suffer well above 300,000 casualties but don't lose entire units.

PhaetonScipio -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (10/6/2017 9:22:28 PM)
Not trying to be Mr.Hindsight but this game is trying simulate the relationship/political aspect of military hierarchy. Instead of punishing the player in the strategical/tactical aspect why can't the Devs utilize the game for what it was known for and lower the command hierarchy effectiveness in the political sphere...You know... simulating how Hitler was on illogical drug induced episodes. Franz Halder can mitigate some of the indecisiveness by having an excellent relationship with Heinrich von Brauchitsch. Make it impossible to achieve such relationship without compromising on the whole love triangle within the German officer korps. Similar to the bipolar relationship with Wagner and Gercke. If it's too onerous to bounce around such numbers you can let us adjust numbers/percentages (I don't know the engine) we will decide for ourselfs.

lancer -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (10/7/2017 10:32:05 PM)
Hi, quote: Not trying to be Mr.Hindsight but this game is trying simulate the relationship/political aspect of military hierarchy. Instead of punishing the player in the strategical/tactical aspect why can't the Devs utilize the game for what it was known for and lower the command hierarchy effectiveness in the political sphere...You know... simulating how Hitler was on illogical drug induced episodes. Franz Halder can mitigate some of the indecisiveness by having an excellent relationship with Heinrich von Brauchitsch. Make it impossible to achieve such relationship without compromising on the whole love triangle within the German officer korps. Similar to the bipolar relationship with Wagner and Gercke. If it's too onerous to bounce around such numbers you can let us adjust numbers/percentages (I don't know the engine) we will decide for ourselfs. That would indeed be a good solution although one with a hefty development overhead. One other practical consideration not previously mentioned is the AI. Vic handled this aspect of the game and it's one of the better AI's out there. He'd give you a more informed answer but my take on it is that if the Germans were allowed to chomp through the Soviets as they did in their inital, historical, blitzkrieg, the AI would have a heck of job picking up the pieces where the Soviet remnants are scattered all over a non-existent front. The AI needs a minimum unit density and some measure of coherency, front wise, in order to do it's job. Without the stiffening of the Soviets in the early game, the mid and late game would likely be a walk over for a German player as the AI would be unable to recover. Designing a decent AI is difficult but coming up with one that can put Humpty Dumpty together again in the face of an ongoing German onslaught is probably beyond the realms of what's feasible. So a more complete answer to the original quesion is that it's as it is because of the design imperative to not place artifical restrictions on the player and to provide the AI with the time and space necessary to be a worthy opponent. Cheers, Cameron

Simulacra53 -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (12/24/2017 3:24:34 PM)
It is a meat grinder. It starts as a cakewalk and suddenly the AI goes solid wall. Even if you try to break through, it just throws up more units until you have a North-South front with no room to punch through as the AI keeps stacking. Shortly after that it starts probing the weak spots and grinding the schwerpunkts. I think the AI also cheats, as it is too effecient in finding the weakpoints. Going to try Fall Blau or Blitzkrieg again, probably the latter - had my measure of grinding (Riga-Minsk-Zhitomir-Odessa).

spellir74 -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (2/11/2018 9:44:35 AM)
If I may... The game needs approx two "practice" scenarios. Instruct the player to play them first. Nothing hard to develop. Just some saves from the middle of campaigns. The way DCBarb is now, the new player has to learn the game "mechanics" (and possibly strategies and tactics) playing the same opening stages over and over. THAT ruins it for him. When instructing a newbie to play the two practice scens first, also instruct how to achieve results. Also the campaign gets harder as one goes already. By having a new player learn from those harder situations, the opening stages, when he starts a campaign proper, will seem much easier to him.

spellir74 -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (2/11/2018 2:09:42 PM)
Techniques and hints for success... Three to one odds, from different directions (splits/overwhelms enemy fire). (Holds true for all levels of combat -- squad to Armee/task forces; for small groups, move to locations through "bounding [leapfrogging] overwatch", after "finding and fixing" the enemy position to be "finished".) ...Early on in 'Barbarossa, 2 to one will do. That above 3 to 1 comes under the heading of -- for large deployments -- "defeat in detail": your strong-point against his weak point. ...Much larger forces were destroyed in history thru that technique [note Napoleon and A Jackson to name only two outnumbered Davids); if necessary, trick the bigger enemy into coming for you in small enough ['detailed'] detachments. 'Hammer and anvil'... Often a faster unit pushing an enemy unit towards the slower anvil... .1st- punch through with infantry (that in real life would often be supported first by assault vehicles [later very heavy ones] and very heavy arty deployed from Corps on an 'as needed' basis[++]) and then .2nd- "exploit" = sweep around with tanks. [[++] People are bemoaning the lack of 'realism' in the game yet the lack of Korps command is ignored. :) Most all heavies are farmed out from korps as "fire brigades" [damage control] to auger clogs and stop leaks.] (Note in game, 'motorized inf' divs ['42 = "Pz Gren"] go farther but are less powerful than tank divs. Use both regular inf divs and possibly Pz-Group inf (but not necessarily mot inf) for the small break throughs.) Now RELEVANT STUFF... OODA loop... "observe, orient, decide, and act" In practical terms that means... watch out for marshes and mountains -- tanks hate 'em; and both them and infantry can't easily combat over defended rivers. Note infantry handles marshes and sometimes mountains ok. (I wonder if 'mtn /light divs' give bonuses for those situations?) Ergo don't put your hammer too deep into a situation where it can be cut off. [That's what she said.] YOU MUST PLAN WHEN to use this 'break-thru and sweep around' towards the [slowly advancing] anvil trick. "Plan" here means observe natural land obstacles. Also relevant to that: Luftwaffe... Make sure you are in range [15 hexes /450 km] of bases in case of an emergency cut-off, FUEL situation happens. Lw is your ace in the hole. [...It is getting bad now really.] Take every opportunity to move LW forward with you, But watch out since the game randomly throws at you options to move them to the rear or just north or south. (One needs to know Russian city locations.) !! Gercke [trains] is in charge of Wagner [trucks]. Done. BUT Wagner's suggestions of when to 'fix' etc trucks should mostly be heeded. Trucks are an Achilles heel. Also split captured trucks 50/ 50 (unless emergency calls for Wagner lean). ...`E.z p.z. Monitor Divs' fatigue and strength etc (under "R" in bottom pane). Like trucks that is Achilles's heel here. Planning when to rest and refit them is rough. !! Goering doesn't need to be buttered up to provide support; but you need to monitor Lw bases quality, which improves with time -- don't move LW bases too much. .... Now more 'office politics' ['PP' in game] (this is more tentative since I am new at the game and it varies)... You can ignore Jodl and Keitel; mostly Goebbels too. Brauchitsch -- your CO -- and Leeb, Bock and Rundstedt (your subordinates)... Too variable to just explain (or know) simply. If you go with Hitler you'll Tee some of them off. Go against Hitler... you'd better take Moscow or else. Rundstedt is usually amiable. ...Maybe disobey Hitler bUT join NSDAP when chance occurs. ...Don't take abstracted rear mop-up-divs off mop up early. But then the game will possibly report that partisan activity has increased anyway -- no win situation. Game throws wild card Chief of staffs at you. !!!!!!!!!!!! German generals need to make it across the Dnepr in the south and in the center early on (using the above techniques), and those marshes in the center and south along the Dnepr need to be cleared early too. 3rd Pz hugs north theater border to get close to Smolensk (using hammer and anvil above). 2nd [fast Heinz] often goes into south for awhile; then back towards Moscow. 4th Pz goes north at first (along with 18th to its left) not east. 16th goes east. (In history I think that 3rdPz went into north theatre a while.) I need to learn more about how to break surrounded stacked hexes easily; also how to prevent the enemy units from all running to one stacked hex over and over again. A little help anyone? .... 4th Romanians (with 'Guards' div)) can only be used as defense basically; other Romanians are ok. Slovak divs in the 17th aren't too tough in my experience. (But 17th is good in my experience) ......... A note regarding others observations here... The game already makes it easy in the beginning and harder later on. BUT the game COULD be changed to reflect more early Russian "shock and awe." E.g 1) Russians could have a surrender logic routine where if there are fewer than 6 divs surrounded they surrender in one turn; if more than e.g 9 divs they surrender later; that routine then goes away as player turns accrue [7-10]. 2) Also early on the shock and awe routine could see the Russians run when confronted by say 5+ divs within 1 hex range. Again this goes off later on in game. (In my experience some of that seems to be happening already but not the surrender part.) Again as I said above some of these new-player woes could be dissipated by a couple practice scenarios.

spellir74 -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (2/11/2018 2:49:23 PM)
Shortcomings of the game are... Items are explained with double negatives galore. Can't figure out what items mean. E.g "[low supply consumption]." And the '+' and '-' seem to go the wrong way in the set up screen; e.g 'mild winter' says 'German -10' (tho we know mild winter means easier German-side gameplay). I know what he means but it is still head titling stuff at first. Needed information is not logically organized --it is hidden all over the place. This Halder is the most disorganized General.[:D] Interesting omission of Korps OOB, duties and assets in a game of this scale. Not so much a gamer's complaint; more an observation.

spellir74 -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (2/12/2018 2:21:42 AM)
More hints for victory... SOUTH THEATRE: In the far south, rush the Romanian 3rd across the mountains and take Czernowitz and Proskorov (and Vinnitsa too over the Dniester?). That blocks the Russians from retreating into the south Dnepr marshes. (If the Russ get a line just east of the Dnepr and marshes, you're farked.) Push the 11thA south east all the way over the marshes to Perekop and Melitopol etc, leaving Odessa to the 4th Rom, if you must (4th Rom will take a lot of causality while laying siege and emboldened the Russ [...but what are you going to do]). Push the 17A south (while sending a detachment to clear out the mtn spine then), along with 1stPz as your hammer towards the 4th Rom and 11thA. They will eventually take Dnepropetrovsk. Don't worry about Crimea. Garrison its entry with 3rd Rom. 2nd PZ and 6thA take the north part of the South Theatre, using the 6th to sweep Pripet marshes easterly. Get them both over the Dnepr. Then send Guderian(2nd Pz) North to Center Theatre. ...... NORTH THEATRE: As said earlier, send 4thPz north to Riga with 18thA left of them; 16thA heads East and takes Kauna etc and pushes along as north flank of Center Theatre's advancing 2nd Pz et al. Then push TOWARDS (but don't take) Leningrad with 4thPz and 18A on its left (18th clearing Talinn etc). Don't attack with Finns for a few beginning turns; lull the Russians. Then take the border (ON the 'B' hexes -- smaller frontage). Use some of Karelia A's divs in the south border area by Leningrad. ..... CENTER THEATRE: ... Now what is your plan? Take Moscow or the wings? If Moscow, consider the Ger juggernaut into Russ to be giant a triangle: don't take the wings too far forward -- too much frontage); BUT do keep their inner Armees up with the Center's advance. In this case keep 2nd Pz in the center's south half. South Theatre depth is least relevant in this scenario. .... I haven't gotten farther than that. (Note I did push east all the way thru in the north and took Leningrad.)

ErissN6 -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (2/12/2018 6:05:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lancer The problem with Barbarossa is the period immediately after the Battle of Smolensk. The Germans had exceeded all expectations and fully expected, in line with their pre-invasion plan, to have defeated the Red Army as an ongoing concern at this point. Game over. They had, in short, come to the end of their plan and were confused as to what to do next. Hitler spent the next five or six weeks flip flopping around until he evenutally figured out what to do - drive directly towards Moscow. To be fair to Adolf, the High Command was also split on a course of action and there were some serious logistical constraints hampering an immediate push onto Moscow. If the game was to reflect historical results it would have to enforce a similar period where the player's ability to take effective military action, eg. keep going straight for whatever objective they were aiming for, would be seriously constrained. Nobody would want that. Germans knew what they had to do: cross far the Volga, their strategical plan since the beginning. With their swift advance to Smolensk, they hopped they could have to not continue going so farther. I think it could have been simulated with the PP points: you have to wait guessing what and how to do the next, it could take the fewer time the more you spend PPs.

neuromancer -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (1/3/2019 10:49:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lancer Vic handled this aspect of the game and it's one of the better AI's out there. He'd give you a more informed answer but my take on it is that if the Germans were allowed to chomp through the Soviets as they did in their inital, historical, blitzkrieg, the AI would have a heck of job picking up the pieces where the Soviet remnants are scattered all over a non-existent front. The AI needs a minimum unit density and some measure of coherency, front wise, in order to do it's job. Without the stiffening of the Soviets in the early game, the mid and late game would likely be a walk over for a German player as the AI would be unable to recover. Designing a decent AI is difficult but coming up with one that can put Humpty Dumpty together again in the face of an ongoing German onslaught is probably beyond the realms of what's feasible. I'm late to this party, but I'd been thinking about playing the game again, but was always frustrated by stalling out too early, so was looking for tips. I was reading this and thinking that I had to agree with the assessment that there had to be a better way to handle this than making the Russians ahistorically capable (which seems to be a common problem making getting even close to the historical achievements very difficult). But for it to be an AI issue... well, that changes things. If the AI pretty much packs it in by the end of July, that wouldn't be any better. Probably much worse. I would definitely say that for a PvP game you should go with more historical, but for the PvC, I get it. On the PvP side I think a better way to have handled it would have been to reduce supply and Political Points while Hitler and the High Command was dithering away. I find its hard to keep all the balls in the air with the limited PPs as it is, although that is one of the more interesting - if frustrating - parts of the concept, by reducing them to a trickle while the Powers That Be try to find their asses would be quite the limitation. At any rate, for the AI, I get it.

wodin -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (1/11/2019 4:24:51 PM)
Love to check your little modification!! quote: ORIGINAL: RandomAttack quote: ORIGINAL: lancer It's a balancing act with no perfect answer. Cheers, Cameron Ain't it the truth![:)] Personally, I appreciate your pretty extensive answers on WHY you chose the direction you did. While this isn't the easiest game to mod, I was able to tweak a couple of things that bugged me most, and this is easily my go-to Eastern Front game.

scout1 -> RE: Awful lot of Russians! (7/2/2019 12:49:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great Having fun with the game but also having the usual failure of German ability to make it. Of course my own failure may be part of the problem.[;)] My first time through and although I surrounded and destroyed a fair number of Russian units in the first few turns, here I am only at the end of July and there are already so many Russian units in including very strong stacks and armor that a German success seems very unlikely. Yes I know a little about history, and I know the Russians came in large numbers, it just seems that this many in July 41 is a bit much. Oh well, fun game. The decision part of it is an interesting and challenging art of the game but a player (at least a new one to the game) has to struggle with that as well. The game comes highly recommended and I will add mine to that. I have to admit however that if the future means the Russian Hordes will make it almost impossible for a German win I may have to switch and play the Russian side. Makes me wonder why I have bought so many Russian front games? [:D] Same comment I'm sure OKH and OKW made shortly into the campaign �...

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