Ready Times Redux (Full Version)

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ZeroAlpha -> Ready Times Redux (7/19/2017 8:15:45 PM)

Aircraft ready times are a perennially controversial topic on here, and at the risk of drawing the ire of devs, I wonder if a re-think for a very specific situation could happen.

Playing Northern Inferno, launch B-1 with intention of sending it to another base. Bit of a screw-up, forcing it to RTB. 20hrs time to ready aircraft for another flight (armed) versus 6(?) to make it ready for a ferry flight. So refuelling the aircraft takes 4x longer than removing the weapons and fuelling it.

I know the ready time is supposed to represent the multitude of factors to have crew and aircraft prepared to launch, but in the situation where there is no change in the loadout other than fuel, surely the ready time should be no more than the time to strip the aircraft and prepare it for a ferry loadout?




CCIP-subsim -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/19/2017 9:39:39 PM)

Well, two things to keep in mind: first there's the three separate systems in play for ready time: (1) surge vs. sustained; (2) quick turnaround; (4) loadout differences.
Secondly, it is actually very easy for a scenario maker to change and adjust ready times however they see fit (via Lua scripts).
Obviously, the systems are a bit imperfect and can "punish" the player unnecessarily, that's true - but I think the main idea behind these is to give the scenario creators a choice to tailor the times to their specific needs for a scenario. Ergo, if the ready times are this way, it's usually because the scenario needs them to be that way, for one reason or another - and if they create a problem, it's also something the scenario maker should probably be blamed for [:'(]

On the other hand, the player who makes some kind of screw-up should also own it, because in simulation terms, 20 hours to re-ready an aircraft is pretty mild as far as penalties planning failures go [;)] In your situation, what I would do is either re-load a save - or save the game, open it in the scenario editor, and manually change the ready time for your B-1. This kind of situation is just something that shouldn't happen often, so I'm not sure it warrants any change to the game itself. If the scenario designer wanted you to be able to turn around bombers quickly, with or without rearming, they have tools to allow you to do so.



ZeroAlpha -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/19/2017 10:09:40 PM)

That's not actually the point.

My point is that if the default ferry times are based on a degree of 'reasonableness' in their assumptions on how long it takes to plan and fuel, then the same actions should apply by default to a substantially similar situation - i.e new flight plan, change the flight suits, some crew rest, fuel and launch the aircraft.

I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be a penalty for errors, but that like for like activity should be treated consistently.



kevinkins -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/19/2017 10:35:14 PM)

If you think the ready times are not correct, play in editor mode so if you make an error it does not mess up all your other previous operational moves. Or better yet, save the game frequently i.e. before you commit to something major. That said, flying out 10 mins and doing a RTB is penalized a lot. I get that. But I think most players manage small mistakes by the techniques describe above. Perfect .. no. Manageable .. yes. The player does not have to sacrifice fog of war nor lose any realism nor fun factor by stepping back and correcting small mistakes - especially like the one described. Until you feel really confident, preserve the fog of war as you work your way through scenarios. The community scenarios are great for that since they are free and generally smaller in size.

Kevin



ZeroAlpha -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/20/2017 12:45:28 AM)

What I'm trying to understand is the logic in how ready times are calculated.

The level of damage an aircraft lands with influences the time for the aircraft to be readied for its next flight. This leads me to infer there is a degree of a logical model buildup in ready times and that it isn't an arbitrary number.

If there is indeed a formulae, then is it factoring fuel-only loads consitently (and is this same calculation used to derive ready times for ferry only flights), or is there a base ready time driven by a database value specific to each and every load, with a formula for damage applied across the top of it later in the time calculation?

If a ready time formulae exists and is partially implemented, can we expert further refinement in upcoming releases?



kevinkins -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/20/2017 1:33:24 AM)

I do not think ready times are articulated to that degree i.e. taking into account damage and fuel use. Once you RTB it's either a quick turn around or a normal one. Binary. Other players may have insight to share.

Kevin



Perham -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/20/2017 7:10:32 AM)

What everyone seems to be missing is that if the base is sufficiently sophisticated to operate B-1s it will be supporting plenty of other assets and missions. Don’t forget that what is shown as available assets when you plan your mission are almost certainly not all the assets at the base. The base will not have ground to a halt after you took off.
As it’s wartime the operation will be organised to also support those other assets their planned missions and urgent routine maintenance so timescales will be compressed. Therefore fitting in your refuelling is not likely to happen immediately. There may only be sufficient fuel immediately available to support those existing missions. Your mission may be time critical and so screwed anyway. Or, given human nature, there may not be too much sympathy for a “screw up”



mikmykWS -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/20/2017 11:52:09 AM)

Hi All

Here's the explanation of why things are done the way they are done.

http://www.warfaresims.com/?page_id=3262

If you have data supporting a change request please do present it.

Thanks

Mike



Peter66 -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/20/2017 12:12:12 PM)

Just want to chime in here because I have seen several similar posts on different subjects. Most revolve around the "this should/maybe be changed because I messed up. But somehow I want a rewind button with forgiveness points". Missions in Command take in to account planning time, which is what seems to be what the users themselves seem to neglect. Don't want to come across harsh but have you considered it's actually you're fault as the user for not planning well enough?



mikmykWS -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/20/2017 3:44:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter66

Just want to chime in here because I have seen several similar posts on different subjects. Most revolve around the "this should/maybe be changed because I messed up. But somehow I want a rewind button with forgiveness points". Missions in Command take in to account planning time, which is what seems to be what the users themselves seem to neglect. Don't want to come across harsh but have you considered it's actually you're fault as the user for not planning well enough?


Excellent point.



ZeroAlpha -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/20/2017 7:22:05 PM)

Wow.

Can we go back and read the posts above?

The question was not because of a screw up. Who cares? The question is that Given there appears to be a formulae at work (as evidenced by the impact of variable damage on ready times), are some elements of the ready cycle (i.e fuel) being treated consistently? If a ready time formulae exists and is partially implemented, can we expert further refinement in upcoming releases?



Kushan04 -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/20/2017 7:34:55 PM)

Your're not going to win this argument. You made a mistake. There a perfectly viable work arounds to do what you want to fix it yourself. The devs are not going to change things just to suite you without a good reason. Not saying they wont refine them if new information warrants it but I think they've been pretty clear they're happy were ready times are right now.



CCIP-subsim -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/20/2017 8:58:53 PM)

There is no formula - if you take a look at the blog post that was linked, you'll see that the turnaround times are standardized on a per-loadout basis, with two additional systems (surge/sustained, quick turnaround) coming into play for certain loadouts and situations. There's no dynamic calculation for the loading time because it involves many factors that will, realistically, never be possible to model in CMANO - everything from mission planning to, say, crew duty times. Instead, the turnaround system is mainly there to give scenario designers a set of rules to work with to achieve the sort of game pacing needed.

The problem otherwise is purely game logic: yes, the situation with the turnaround may be a bit frustrating in this one instance, but on the other hand, what'd be even more frustrating is trying to sort out a different system. How do you propose, for example, the game distinguish between a player messing up on the one hand, and a player intentionally bending rules to get completely unrealistic sortie rates? This is why the limitations were introduced in the first place, to overcome the old Harpoon problem of basically infinite sorties, and "fixes" to it which introduced limits, but completely inflexible ones. CMANO, on the other hand, places the ready times in the hands of the scenario designer. So again, it bears repeating: if you are being prevented from a rapid turnaround, this is probably intentional.



ZeroAlpha -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/20/2017 9:03:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CCIPsubsim

There is no formula - if you take a look at the blog post that was linked, you'll see that the turnaround times are standardized on a per-loadout basis, with two additional systems (surge/sustained, quick turnaround) coming into play for certain loadouts and situations. There's no dynamic calculation for the loading time because it involves many factors that will, realistically, never be possible to model in CMANO - everything from mission planning to, say, crew duty times. Instead, the turnaround system is mainly there to give scenario designers a set of rules to work with to achieve the sort of game pacing needed.


The blog post pre-dates the aircraft damage mode.

Delays are introduced based on the extent of damage - which is a dynamic calculation.

What I am asking is that if a formulae is applied over the top of the database values (and it will always be applied over the top of the database values), or if the formulae for ready times is intended to evolve to become more sophisticated over time.



mikmykWS -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/20/2017 9:14:39 PM)

The blog post was released to introduce the changes.

The values are stored in the database.

More sophisticated stuff could be done.

Do you have a use case supported by data?

Thanks!


Mike




AlphaSierra -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/21/2017 1:08:09 PM)

Contingency comes into play a LOT in this Simulator. If a bombing is important enough to warrant B-2's, maybe its important enough to have a plan B (bring more assets).



Peter66 -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/21/2017 7:18:39 PM)

This is how I work things out in my scenarios:

Problem: Ready times are not correct for my needs. This is especially important in carrier operations.
Solution: Select loadout. Set Ready Time. Done.

Problem: I did something silly.
Solution 1: Learn from it.
Solution 2: Use the editor which I recommend using scenarios with anyway as it adds lots of functionality.
Solution 3: Complain to other Command users at how inadequate I am and I need to learn more.

Data provided to show I am not all knowledgeable God of warfare: Lots.
Data provided that it's usually my fault as both a user and scenario designer that the aircraft times were planned wrong. Lots.
Data provided that it's somehow Command's fault? None.

Again do not mean to sound harsh but you must look at beyond what -you- want and what future situations may be. What works for one may break for many. Interesting ideas but I think it needs fleshing out a bit because it honestly appears to be user error all the time. Be that the user or the scenario designer.



ZeroAlpha -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/22/2017 9:02:24 AM)

Peter, go back and read the the previous posts. I don't give a toss about the error. It is not material.



Peter66 -> RE: Ready Times Redux (7/22/2017 9:33:59 AM)

I think you misunderstood my post.

Clearly the error is material. Because why else would it affect a scenario? Don't take that the wrong way either please. What I'm saying is, if Command changes how the formula works for ready times then it runs a large risk of breaking a lot of other areas without intentionally doing so.

I agree at first it seems strange it takes longer to refuel an aircraft than remove it's weapons. But you must also consider it's not just refueling the aircraft. The ground crews are being briefed. The pilot is being debriefed and briefed again on the new mission. The ground crews may be doing a swap over shift which might add a small delay. The airfield is almost certainly not just operating that one aircraft and is likely dealing with several others getting ready too in one state or another.

There are solutions to this but it seems you want more without providing anyone any data? I'm all for discussing this but please don't accuse me of not reading previous posts.



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