How things like RCS are decided? (Full Version)

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marksi10 -> How things like RCS are decided? (7/31/2017 11:36:57 AM)

I know the game designers don´t like (or perhaps have time) to give away their secrets, but does anyone know how things like RCS are determined? Do the designers find a figure quoted somewhere in the manufacturer´s literature and extrapolate from there? This was how I thought they did it, but there are some examples that don´t seem to fit this, for example the PAK-FA. The Sukhoi patent was for an aircraft with a RCS of 0.1-1m2, but the CMANO PAK-FA´s RCS is an order of magnitude smaller. Is this a case of the designers not believing the manufacturer´s lack of hype? Also, does anyone know if there is any way to find out which radar bands are used in the game? I was kind of surprised that the S12850M on the Daring destroyers couldn´t pick up a j-31 until it was about 20NM away. Since it is L-band, I thought the game would treat it as such and it would perform fairly well against stealth.



User2 -> RE: How things like RCS are decided? (7/31/2017 1:20:57 PM)

quote:

The Sukhoi patent was for an aircraft with a RCS of 0.1-1m2, but the CMANO PAK-FA´s RCS is an order of magnitude smaller. Is this a case of the designers not believing the manufacturer´s lack of hype?

In a nutshell: RCS used by Sukhoi and RCS used in the game are two different physic parameters.
Here is more info on that topic https://youtu.be/scJnps0RErg?t=437

quote:

I know the game designers don´t like (or perhaps have time) to give away their secrets, but does anyone know how things like RCS are determined?

It was stated in db3k thread that they use special program to estimate RCS. However sometimes it gives weird results (like 100kt carrier has smaller RCS than 5kt destroyer).
I think CMANO staff use public resources to find RCS. If it is not possible they use their special tool to get RCS.

quote:

if there is any way to find out which radar bands are used in the game

Yes. You need to open DB file by 3rd party viewers. Ingame DB viewer doesnt allow you to get such info. Devs already stated somewhere that they do not want players to analyse radar bands because iirc it is not very realistic to know such information for every unit in real life combat



marksi10 -> RE: How things like RCS are decided? (7/31/2017 1:32:36 PM)

Thanks for the really helpful answer. I was going to query the last thing you said, but then I realised that the game designers are basically flipping the situation. In real life, it is likely that you would know the radar band (as long as you could identify the radar and had access to the internet), but you wouldn´t have access to the exact performance parameters of the radar, which you do in the game. So keeping the former secret stops people determing the distance a radar can detect them before they fly into combat.



User2 -> RE: How things like RCS are decided? (7/31/2017 2:02:43 PM)

Well, to be fair military hardware is known to not use the whole frequency range during peace time. For example s300 is using another frequencies while at low combat readiness.



Sharana -> RE: How things like RCS are decided? (8/1/2017 7:18:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marksi10

I know the game designers don´t like (or perhaps have time) to give away their secrets, but does anyone know how things like RCS are determined? Do the designers find a figure quoted somewhere in the manufacturer´s literature and extrapolate from there? This was how I thought they did it, but there are some examples that don´t seem to fit this, for example the PAK-FA. The Sukhoi patent was for an aircraft with a RCS of 0.1-1m2, but the CMANO PAK-FA´s RCS is an order of magnitude smaller. Is this a case of the designers not believing the manufacturer´s lack of hype? Also, does anyone know if there is any way to find out which radar bands are used in the game? I was kind of surprised that the S12850M on the Daring destroyers couldn´t pick up a j-31 until it was about 20NM away. Since it is L-band, I thought the game would treat it as such and it would perform fairly well against stealth.



Stealth is generally overdid in CMANO, way overdid.
For example PAK-FA in the DB is with 0,036 while F-22 with 0,0072. That means that F-22 is 5 times "stealthier" then PAK FA which sounds pretty realistic, yet both values sound bullshit. Then we go further with 0,00059 for RQ-180. 12 times "stealthier" then F-22 and 60 times compared to PAK FA while even remotely possible is still bullshit value, because it would mean it's 13 728 times "stealthier" then 4th gen Su-35 for example. Does that sound realistic? :)

On the other hand the latest "anti-stealth" russian radar detects F-35 from 175km in the game which doesn't sound that bad.
Also if the RCS values irl are really that low then there is logic to the russian focus on maneuverability, because when you put 5th gen vs 5th gen they just don't detect each other from far away for the usual BVR combat to take place :)



gosnold -> RE: How things like RCS are decided? (8/1/2017 7:43:42 PM)

It's a good question and I'm wondering more specifically about the RCS of ground vehicles. They seem often very low in the database (-2dbsqm seems to be a popular value), and have no connection with the surface area that is indicated in the DB. Is it voluntary to make them undetectable inside ground clutter? Because it's really hard to detect ground vehicles with radar currently.



marksi10 -> RE: How things like RCS are decided? (8/5/2017 1:25:03 PM)

I think you may have been a bit misled by the RQ-180 - you might have noticed that it doesn´t have a picture, that´s because no one knows what it looks like (except people who can´t tell). Therefore, it probably should be noted that they are guesstimated stats. The other values seem believable to me, if the USAF can be believed - they have claimed that the frontal RCS of f-35 is like that of a golf ball, and that of the f-22 like that of a metal marble. I´ll let you do the maths, but I think that is probably what the game designers have based the RCS on.



Sharana -> RE: How things like RCS are decided? (8/5/2017 2:36:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marksi10

I think you may have been a bit misled by the RQ-180 - you might have noticed that it doesn´t have a picture, that´s because no one knows what it looks like (except people who can´t tell). Therefore, it probably should be noted that they are guesstimated stats. The other values seem believable to me, if the USAF can be believed - they have claimed that the frontal RCS of f-35 is like that of a golf ball, and that of the f-22 like that of a metal marble. I´ll let you do the maths, but I think that is probably what the game designers have based the RCS on.


Saab claims 0,1m2 frontal RCS for their Gripen. Russians claim quite a lot of things about their planes, SAMs and radars esp when it comes to ability to detect stealths and engage them. Chinese claim their latest Air to air missle has more range then the AIM-120D. Should we believe all the marketing brochures? Or we can believe only the ones we like? :)

Not to mention there are so many angles IRL giving different values and not just 3 values saying front side and rear. So detection works in qute different ways. Besides if you say that the values sound "realistic" to you then why were you complaining about PAK-FA? Or you want it to have more RCS then Saab claims for their Gripen, while the rest keep "realistic" values?



marksi10 -> RE: How things like RCS are decided? (8/6/2017 7:22:42 AM)

Actually, I´ve been very consistent. I queried why the PAK-FA RCS did not match Sukhoi´s claims. User2 explained why this might be so. I can believe Saab´s claims for the frontal RCS of the Gripen in this context. It does not seem inconsistent to me, given that the Eurofighter and Rafale of the same generation have slightly larger RCS values and are also slightly larger. I didn´t suggest what I thought what the RCS should be based on my own estimation, since I am not an aircraft designer. Obviously, RCS is different from different angles, but how much detail do you want the game to have? I think this and the fact that radar bands are just split into two groups for game purposes (and RCS values for the first set are just 10 times those for the second) are understandable compromises. Again, my intention was not to complain but rather to understand how these things are determined.



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