Vulnerable location hit (Full Version)

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Cona -> Vulnerable location hit (5/25/2001 9:28:00 AM)

I've read the manual and can't find any clues about the message "vulnerable location hit". I mean ... before version 5.01, you get that toolbox message or the "main gun" message and i still see those. Now you see this new message too ... what does it mean ? more supression for the crew inside the vehicle ? because i've seen a kill just once. Saludos a todos, Cona.



Flashfyre -> (5/25/2001 2:27:00 PM)

A "vulnerable location" is just that...a spot on the vehicle that isn't as well-protected as the overall armor rating. Think of engine grilles, seams in the armor (bad welding caused some early Sherman kills from low-velocity rounds), driver/gunner vision slit, etc. It's like a critical hit in many games...you get a better chance of damage/kill with a weapon that under normal circumstances would have no effect. I had a Brit Daimler Scout car taken out by a sniper with a rifle due to a "vulnerable location" top hit. :eek: :eek: "Normally", that wouldn't have happened. But we all know that in war, nothing is "normal". :D



Lars Remmen -> (5/25/2001 2:37:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Flashfyre: I had a Brit Daimler Scout car taken out by a sniper with a rifle due to a "vulnerable location" top hit. :eek: :eek: "Normally", that wouldn't have happened. But we all know that in war, nothing is "normal". :D
I've had a Panther A killed by a top hit (vulnerable location) by the .30 MG on a Aircobra...



Mikimoto -> (5/25/2001 7:01:00 PM)

Hello. I had a Renault FT-17 turret damaged by vulnerable damage hit, by MG34 fire. :D



Paul Vebber -> (5/25/2001 7:52:00 PM)

A vulnerable location hit reduces the base armor by 50% before modification... Still should not allow an MG to kill a tank except in assault? Maybe something rounded down to "0" somehow... Unfortunately a couple messeges like vulnerable location hit don't print to the combat log file so its hard to tell sometimes what is going on ;)



Slind -> (5/25/2001 7:58:00 PM)

I had PzKmpfw-Ib destroyed by a hit of a pistol :)



Colonel von Blitz -> (5/25/2001 9:15:00 PM)

I've seen a lot of (enemy) trucks taking vulnerable location hits but resulting 'no effect'-hits. Must be my extremely poor luck or something like that :D Colonel von Blitz



Charles2222 -> (5/25/2001 9:36:00 PM)

quote:

I've had a Panther A killed by a top hit (vulnerable location) by the .30 MG on a Aircobra...
I've had a Matilda II knocked out with a top hit by that German bi-plane's (He-293 was it?)MG, and it WASN'T a vulnerable hit. I take it, given Paul's explanation, that for a vulnerable hit to register, is not the same as it actually being pierced, is it? If this is the norm (for mgs to possibly pierce Matilda II top armor with mgs), the Stuka ought to be a real terror. [ May 25, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]



Paul Vebber -> (5/25/2001 9:52:00 PM)

Aircraft MGs are "different" they have a chance to kill that "regular" MG's don't have. Trucks and other unarmored things are not affected by "vulnerable location hits" because half of 0 is still 0. Trucks have a whole lot of "dead space" though so rounds going through them often don't do anyhting!



Flashfyre -> (5/25/2001 11:41:00 PM)

I've noticed that most "vulnerable location" hits happen at short range (<4 hexes). Mostly leg units, like infantry, MGs, ATRs, etc.



Mikimoto -> (5/26/2001 3:28:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: A vulnerable location hit reduces the base armor by 50% before modification... Still should not allow an MG to kill a tank except in assault? Maybe something rounded down to "0" somehow... Unfortunately a couple messeges like vulnerable location hit don't print to the combat log file so its hard to tell sometimes what is going on ;)
Hello David. The "vulnerable location hit" that i viewed in the game did not destroyed the tank. Actually I don't know what effect it has against vehicles (reduced base armor for this or posterior hits?). I was trying to supress the tank to make a close assault by infantry. Well, that message sounded so impresive that I ordered my infantry to assault, and destroyed the tank (81%assault). By the way, I have never seen a Machinegun team assaulting nothing, never. Not in older versions not in 5.XX. Snipers and fire observers do assaults, but not MG teams. Can't they?



Mikimoto -> (5/26/2001 3:55:00 AM)

Sorry Paul. I wanted to saludate to you...



Gallo Rojo -> (5/26/2001 4:37:00 AM)

I've had a Maus knocked out with a top hit by a coconut shouted by a monkey that was hidden on a palm tree! :eek: :D



Paul Vebber -> (5/26/2001 5:55:00 AM)

Yes the chances of a vulnerable hit get bigger once you get very close. And come to think of it I don't MG units do assault tanks... [ May 25, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]



Igor -> (5/26/2001 6:05:00 AM)

I've seen Japanese tanks kill T-26s and those silly little machine gun tankettes with their hull machine guns in recent long war battles. Not often, but once or twice a battle. I reckon the defenders in these cases just refused to button up... [ May 25, 2001: Message edited by: Igor ]



Colonel von Blitz -> (5/26/2001 3:18:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: Trucks and other unarmored things are not affected by "vulnerable location hits" because half of 0 is still 0. Trucks have a whole lot of "dead space" though so rounds going through them often don't do anyhting!
I just witnessed a very odd incident while doing some equipment testing for PBEM game. I used a couple of 50 cal machine guns to destroy enemy trucks, but there was one VERY lucky truck in the field. During one turn I fired 9 bursts (4 + 5) at that particular truck (range was 7 hexes) scoring 7 hits. The truck took several *-hits, and was disabled, but not destroyed. Next turn I did the same...once more, the truck wasn't destroyed...I took a pen and paper and started to keep track of the hits: the truck took 46(!!!!!) hits before it was finally destroyed...now I really must be the unluckiest commander of the field :D and the guy driving that truck must be the most lucky guy in the world! I would like to see that truck after 46 bursts from 50 cal MGs :D Colonel von Blitz



Paul Vebber -> (5/26/2001 11:20:00 PM)

How many half inch holes does it take to destroy a truck? Right up there with the real life KV that took 42 hits from an 88 and was finally taken out with a satchel charge...



Gloo -> (6/1/2001 9:24:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: ...Right up there with the real life KV that took 42 hits from an 88 and was finally taken out with a satchel charge...
Heard about that story related on a web page talking about Talonsoft EF. I'd like to know what happened to the crew? Did anyone survived? Lately I saw retreating crewmen successfuly assaulting a SdKfz and destroying it! How can a suppressed crew, assault and destroy an armored vehicle only using pistols?! :D



Paul Vebber -> (6/1/2001 10:47:00 AM)

Read a few Medal of Honor citations...how does anyone do any heroic action? Maybe they found a PF lying around...or a bunch of grenades?



Flashfyre -> (6/1/2001 11:04:00 AM)

"Destroyed" does not necessarily mean "blown up". Abstract the actions of some tank crewmen, who just had their track shot out from under them, going a bit crazy and climbing onto the enemy tank, throwing open a hatch, and spraying the inside with a clip from a .45 pistol. Ricochet is terrible inside a steel can.....most or all the enemy crew dead/wounded, tank is "combat ineffective", therefore considered "destroyed" in terms of effectiveness. Assaults are abstract representations of all the various actions taken in "real life" to render an enemy vehicle inoperative.



Gordon_freeman -> (6/1/2001 2:30:00 PM)

First of all, like all of your stories about these hits, like the 46 hit's on the truck, thanks! But what allways gets me is when a small/light tank is hit by the dreaded 88 and still gets away with 3 hits telling me front turret hit, front armour hti and so on, then in return, My crew dies in MG fire. I remeber still SP1, put the game on the "hard" level, had a Jagdtiger and hit a Stuart for 6 times, not killing it! Up to now i call those crew "brothers of the holy one"...



Charles2222 -> (6/1/2001 8:27:00 PM)

Flashfyre: Well that's a real fight to the death, isn't it? The crew who had their thread blown off assaults another tank. In so doing that tank has survivors most likely, and then the REAL fighting starts (crew vs. crew). Actually I don't think I've ever seen that happen, as my crews get out of the action if possible. [ June 01, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]



Dan Bozza -> (6/1/2001 11:48:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22: Flashfyre: Well that's a real fight to the death, isn't it? The crew who had their thread blown off assaults another tank. In so doing that tank has survivors most likely, and then the REAL fighting starts (crew vs. crew). Actually I don't think I've ever seen that happen, as my crews get out of the action if possible. [ June 01, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]
It's happened to me a couple of times - took a long time for one to finish the other off. Hit chances never rose above 15% or so, even at 1 hex range. [ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: Boz ]



Charles2222 -> (6/2/2001 12:46:00 AM)

Maybe if they succeed very much in hand-to-APV fighting, their infantry rating should go up.



Charles2222 -> (6/2/2001 12:53:00 AM)

BTW, a note on kills, which everyone might've noticed by now, and it is slightly annoying. During bombardment in particular, casualties are often not displayed where they used to be, that is in the portion of the screen where you're getting direct fire reports. They are often showing up in the log instead, so they are being reported, it's just that your eyes have to become a yo-yo to try to keep track of whether troops are being lost.



Gloo -> (6/11/2001 9:37:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: Read a few Medal of Honor citations...how does anyone do any heroic action? Maybe they found a PF lying around...or a bunch of grenades?
Well, why not actually. :) But I never saw a MG crew assaulting anything coming close to them... ! Maybe they have no eagle eye to notice that bunch of grenade lying around and that's why they are given care of a MG? No need to be a sharpshooter to strafe the landscape with such a toy :D



Flashfyre -> (6/11/2001 10:54:00 PM)

quote:

Flashfyre: Well that's a real fight to the death, isn't it? The crew who had their thread blown off assaults another tank. In so doing that tank has survivors most likely, and then the REAL fighting starts (crew vs. crew). Actually I don't think I've ever seen that happen, as my crews get out of the action if possible. [ June 01, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]
I just finished a PBM game with a friend of mine, German/Soviet meeting engagement, where our armor forces (1 company StuGs/2 Tigers against 1 company T-34s/2 KV-2s) met in a valley and virtually annihilated each other. Many crewmen left, and the VHs were points-per-turn style. Infantry on both sides still "legging" it to the front, so the crews went at it. Roughly equal results for each of us; most crews killed, a couple of melee attacks, and one assault (my Russian crew against a StuG, which failed and got them blown away). It was a bloody day for the Motherland, but many Nazi soldiers went back to the Reich in body bags. And a huge pile of scrap iron was left in the valley. Only 3 StuGs survived the massacre, and they turned tail and fled to the rear. When the fighting starts, use whatever troops are at hand. Just because the crew had their tread shot out from under them doesn't mean they can't contribute to the war effort.



Easy8 -> (6/12/2001 3:37:00 AM)

Played a long campaign scenario recently, US vs Ger. Had Shermans destroy a Tiger, 2 Pz V, and a Pz III with bottom hits by .50 cal AAMG's. German tanks were at 1 hex range and charging down slopes. Interesting, because I have played all versions of SP since 1996 and have NEVER seen this before or since.



Igor -> (6/12/2001 8:30:00 AM)

I posted a message about this in the bug report thread about a shooting gallery I had set up; basically, small arms/MGs can kill a vehicle if they score a vulnerable location hit on a face where their HE kill factor is greater than the armor. When I tried it, it worked out to about one kill/damage per three VL hits. It was explained to me that this was a side effect of another change; the HE kill of a machine gun is being treated by the game like the HE kill of a shell or bomb. However, as it also simulates the effect of lots of MG fire at vision ports and such like, it should be regarded as a fix rather than a bug. FWIW, .50 MGs are treated as firing AP ammo when shooting at armor; so the bottom hit on the tiger probably didn't need a VL result to punch through, it could do it the old fashioned way



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